Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-05-2011, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by iaflyer
From the sounds of it around here, SWA pay for ours 737, adjusted up/down for size of aircraft, SWA min pay per day, same average days off and reserve guarantee, and scope would be just fine for a contract. Add a 3%-5% per year raise. Sure - that's a pretty good minimum for me.
And as DAL88 pointed out, I don't think DALPA is thinking of that as a minimum. Personally, I think their view of the minimum is 3% raise each year with some fixes to 23K and maybe a few other tiems. They *aren't* going to change much in scheduling - they just did that with the SOT. The only items I bet we'll see are the 5-6 items they couldn't come to a consensus on in the SOT.
And as DAL88 pointed out, I don't think DALPA is thinking of that as a minimum. Personally, I think their view of the minimum is 3% raise each year with some fixes to 23K and maybe a few other tiems. They *aren't* going to change much in scheduling - they just did that with the SOT. The only items I bet we'll see are the 5-6 items they couldn't come to a consensus on in the SOT.
Background:
1. SWA will, when counting firm orders including the AirTran fleet and firm orders, have an average seating capacity of 135 for their monstrous 896 no-RJ fleet.
2. Delta average seating for its 737 fleet is 156, with 73 being 738s and 10 being 737s. The DAL 737 is therefore 21 seats larger than the SWA fleet on average and has a tremendously more complicated international mission focus.
3. The Delta average seating for the A319/320 is 138, with 55 A319s and 69 A320s in airline non charter service. The average seating capacity is near identical to the SWA capacity.
4. Delta average seating for the MD88/MD90 fleet is 153, with 117 MD88s that will soon all seat 149 and 59 MD90s seating 160. The average seating capacity is 18 seats greater for the MD89 than SWA fleet.
5. Only 2% of the new SWA fleet will be 175 seat 738s whereas our 737 fleet is 88% 738s.
6. Top end pay for SWA's fleet this year (and assuming the 717 will be paid equally) is $210 and $147 for CA and FO. Our 737 is $174 and $119, the A320 $168 and $115, MD90 $165 and $113, MD88 $161 and $110 and DC9 $157 and $107. Thus the lowest paying is the DC9 followed by the MD88. Highest paying NB is the 737.
7. The pay increase to achieve parity between their fleet and ours is 21 to 24% for the 737 for left and right seat, 30 to 34% for the MD88, 25 to 28% for the A320 and 27 to 30% for the MD90. So NB fleet wide is a 21 to 37% increase for parity. And that does not take into account the min guarantee difference of 78 to 70 hours for SWA and DAL. NOR DOES IT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT W2 PARITY WHICH REQUIRES A PROBABLY 50% PAY INCREASE.
8. 10% of the SWA fleet will be 117 seat Boeing 717s, a DC-9-30 in size. Those SWA pilots will be flying $53 and $40 per hour more than our pilots flying on DC-9-30 pay rates.
As I see it, the DAL 737 fleet flies a near 20 seat on average larger aircraft on more difficult missions. I don't think the DAL 737 pay should equal SWA 737 pay just because they're both 737s and I don't think it matters if SWA takes deliveries of a few 738s. A RC-12 in the Army while still a Beech King Air 200 is in no way doing the same mission as the average domestic King Air.
The A320 and 319 share a very similar domestic mission profile to the SWA 737 and very similar seating average. That is a far more reasonable pay parity. But the A320/319 is smaller than the MD88 and MD90 by 14 seats on average and the A319 is 27% smaller than the MD90, but yet those categories pay less. I say you can't use the A320 for parity if the 88/90 still pay less.
I think pick the lowest common aircraft, the DC-9-30 and make them equal. If SWA is willing to pay a DC9-30 pilot a higher rate (higher than our 747 pay) then use that airplane. If not the 9, then move up one aircraft on the pecking order and equal out the pay and that's the MD88.
Then adjust the higher paying A320, 737, 767, 7ER, 765, 777, 744 and 330 fleets proportionate to the pay differences now and call it a day.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 07-06-2011 at 05:13 AM.
07-05-2011, 07:14 PM
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I have flown with that guy. Good guy. PA skills...not so much. The free beer for 4 days spot on! : )
07-05-2011, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by contrails
Hypothetical situation . . . you're riding in the back of an MD88. The flight is late, and the cabin is stifling hot. The captain makes the welcome PA in the cabin stating he's flown fighters for [number greater than 20] years and thus likes to spend a lot of time upside down in airplanes, and on this flight plans on doing a roll after takeoff . . . do you laugh?
07-05-2011, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by forgot to bid
fwiw, the reason I harp on the MD88 being 1:1 pay with SWA 737 is this:
1. SWA will, when counting firm orders including the AirTran fleet and firm orders, have an average seating capacity of 135 for their monstrous 896 no-RJ fleet.
2. Delta average seating for its 737 fleet is 156, with 73 being 738s and 10 being 737s. The DAL 737 is therefore about 20 seats larger than the SWA fleet on average and has a tremendously more complicated internaitonal mission.
3. The Delta average seating for the A319/320 is 138, with 55 A319s and 69 A320s in airline non charter service. The average seating capacity is near identical to the SWA capacity.
4. Delta average seating for the MD88/MD90 fleet is 153, with 117 MD88s that will soon all seat 149 and 59 MD90s seating 160. The average seating capacity is 18 seats greater for the MD89 than SWA fleet.
5. Only 2% of the new SWA fleet will be 175 seat 738s whereas our fleet is 88% 738s.
6. Top end pay for SWA's fleet this year (and assuming the 717 will be paid equally) is $210 and $147 for CA and FO. Our 737 is $174 and $119, the A320 $168 and $115, MD90 $165 and $113, MD88 $161 and $110 and DC9 $157 and $107.
7. The pay increase to achieve parity between their fleet and ours is 21 to 24% for the 737 for left and right seat, 30 to 34% for the MD88, 25 to 28% for the A320 and 27 to 30% for the MD90. So NB fleet wide is a 21 to 37% increase for parity. And that does not take into account the min guarantee difference of 78 to 70 hours for SWA and DAL.
8. 10% of the SWA fleet will be 117 seat Boeing 717s, a DC-9-30 in size. Those SWA pilots will be flying $53 and $40 per hour more than our pilots flying on DC-9-30 seats.
Why equate a larger aircraft with a broader and more difficult international mission with that of a domestic only aircraft that seats 20 fewer people?
The A320 and 319 share a very similar domestic mission profile to the SWA 737 and very similar seating average. That is a far more reasonable pay parity. But the A320/319 is smaller than the lesser paying MD88 and MD90 fleet by on average 14 seats and between the 90 and 319 the 319 is 27% smaller and their fleet sizes are equal.
I think pick the lowest common aircraft, the DC-9-30 and make them equal. If not them, then move up one aircraft on the pecking order and equal out the pay. Then adjust the higher paying A320, 737, 767, 7ER, 765, 777, 744 and 330 fleets proportionate to the pay differences now and call it a day.
1. SWA will, when counting firm orders including the AirTran fleet and firm orders, have an average seating capacity of 135 for their monstrous 896 no-RJ fleet.
2. Delta average seating for its 737 fleet is 156, with 73 being 738s and 10 being 737s. The DAL 737 is therefore about 20 seats larger than the SWA fleet on average and has a tremendously more complicated internaitonal mission.
3. The Delta average seating for the A319/320 is 138, with 55 A319s and 69 A320s in airline non charter service. The average seating capacity is near identical to the SWA capacity.
4. Delta average seating for the MD88/MD90 fleet is 153, with 117 MD88s that will soon all seat 149 and 59 MD90s seating 160. The average seating capacity is 18 seats greater for the MD89 than SWA fleet.
5. Only 2% of the new SWA fleet will be 175 seat 738s whereas our fleet is 88% 738s.
6. Top end pay for SWA's fleet this year (and assuming the 717 will be paid equally) is $210 and $147 for CA and FO. Our 737 is $174 and $119, the A320 $168 and $115, MD90 $165 and $113, MD88 $161 and $110 and DC9 $157 and $107.
7. The pay increase to achieve parity between their fleet and ours is 21 to 24% for the 737 for left and right seat, 30 to 34% for the MD88, 25 to 28% for the A320 and 27 to 30% for the MD90. So NB fleet wide is a 21 to 37% increase for parity. And that does not take into account the min guarantee difference of 78 to 70 hours for SWA and DAL.
8. 10% of the SWA fleet will be 117 seat Boeing 717s, a DC-9-30 in size. Those SWA pilots will be flying $53 and $40 per hour more than our pilots flying on DC-9-30 seats.
Why equate a larger aircraft with a broader and more difficult international mission with that of a domestic only aircraft that seats 20 fewer people?
The A320 and 319 share a very similar domestic mission profile to the SWA 737 and very similar seating average. That is a far more reasonable pay parity. But the A320/319 is smaller than the lesser paying MD88 and MD90 fleet by on average 14 seats and between the 90 and 319 the 319 is 27% smaller and their fleet sizes are equal.
I think pick the lowest common aircraft, the DC-9-30 and make them equal. If not them, then move up one aircraft on the pecking order and equal out the pay. Then adjust the higher paying A320, 737, 767, 7ER, 765, 777, 744 and 330 fleets proportionate to the pay differences now and call it a day.
07-05-2011, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by slowplay
Which DALPA guy said that...or is it some "duff" pontificating from BL?
Why do you find it necessary to insult everyone with an opinion different than yours ? I feel it is demeaning to you and erases the points you would like to make.
If you have a cogent, accurate comment, it will stand on it's own merit without the venom......try it sometime.
Regards,
BG
07-05-2011, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Lumberg
The DALPA opener will be crucial. If they low ball it, the group may turn on them. The best way to get their attention is to sign the card for the DPA. Send them a message, that we are serious. They will fight for at least Southwest +1 for the 737 in the first year (not at the end) of the contract, and then tiighten Scope, code shares and RJs. If they don't, the DPA will. I was told our dues equalled many millions of dollars last year. With that, the DPA can rent some good negotiators probably. Send in the card, and send a message.
I am very curious as to why you state DPA will get the contract we deserve? I am sure of their intent and I support it but DPA has a lot to do to be making such bold statements... am I wrong here?
Last edited by FIIGMO; 07-05-2011 at 07:22 PM. Reason: one last thing....
07-05-2011, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
That's a great point. But the concern many of us have is that our MEC believes something significantly LESS than SWA is all we can achieve, and they will open with significantly LESS than the minimum floor some of us are stating. They have given us no reason to believe otherwise and plenty of reasons to believe this is the case.
The DPA, this forum, this public sausage, they're all ways to try to check and balance the union but none would be as effective nor as beneficial as empowering the members, those whose salaries are used to fund the union, to elect our own president directly.
We should have the ability to have a bloodless revolution from time to time if needed. To not allow one to vote for their own union president equals member suppression and we become a union no different than any other Trumka affiliate who love the big inflatable rats.
It's beneath us to remain in that kind of system given we've got the intellectual faculty to fly aircraft the size of buildings that cost 9 figures new to the opposite side of the planet.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 07-05-2011 at 07:52 PM.
07-05-2011, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by forgot to bid
fwiw, the reason I harp on the MD88 being 1:1 pay with SWA is, why pay our largest and highest paying narrowbody the same pay that SWA pays for an aircraft that is the smallest narrowbody aircraft in our fleet and used only domestically?
Or:
1. SWA will, when counting firm orders including the AirTran fleet and firm orders, have an average seating capacity of 135 for their monstrous 896 no-RJ fleet.
2. Delta average seating for its 737 fleet is 156, with 73 being 738s and 10 being 737s. The DAL 737 is therefore 21 seats larger than the SWA fleet on average and has a tremendously more complicated internaitonal mission.
3. The Delta average seating for the A319/320 is 138, with 55 A319s and 69 A320s in airline non charter service. The average seating capacity is near identical to the SWA capacity.
4. Delta average seating for the MD88/MD90 fleet is 153, with 117 MD88s that will soon all seat 149 and 59 MD90s seating 160. The average seating capacity is 18 seats greater for the MD89 than SWA fleet.
5. Only 2% of the new SWA fleet will be 175 seat 738s whereas our fleet is 88% 738s.
6. Top end pay for SWA's fleet this year (and assuming the 717 will be paid equally) is $210 and $147 for CA and FO. Our 737 is $174 and $119, the A320 $168 and $115, MD90 $165 and $113, MD88 $161 and $110 and DC9 $157 and $107.
7. The pay increase to achieve parity between their fleet and ours is 21 to 24% for the 737 for left and right seat, 30 to 34% for the MD88, 25 to 28% for the A320 and 27 to 30% for the MD90. So NB fleet wide is a 21 to 37% increase for parity. And that does not take into account the min guarantee difference of 78 to 70 hours for SWA and DAL.
8. 10% of the SWA fleet will be 117 seat Boeing 717s, a DC-9-30 in size. Those SWA pilots will be flying $53 and $40 per hour more than our pilots flying on DC-9-30 seats.
Why equate a larger aircraft with a broader and more difficult international mission with that of a domestic only aircraft that seats 20 fewer people?
The A320 and 319 share a very similar domestic mission profile to the SWA 737 and very similar seating average. That is a far more reasonable pay parity. But the A320/319 is smaller than the lesser paying MD88 and MD90 fleet by on average 14 seats and between the 90 and 319 the 319 is 27% smaller and their fleet sizes are equal.
I think pick the lowest common aircraft, the DC-9-30 and make them equal. If not them, then move up one aircraft on the pecking order and equal out the pay. Then adjust the higher paying A320, 737, 767, 7ER, 765, 777, 744 and 330 fleets proportionate to the pay differences now and call it a day.
Or:
1. SWA will, when counting firm orders including the AirTran fleet and firm orders, have an average seating capacity of 135 for their monstrous 896 no-RJ fleet.
2. Delta average seating for its 737 fleet is 156, with 73 being 738s and 10 being 737s. The DAL 737 is therefore 21 seats larger than the SWA fleet on average and has a tremendously more complicated internaitonal mission.
3. The Delta average seating for the A319/320 is 138, with 55 A319s and 69 A320s in airline non charter service. The average seating capacity is near identical to the SWA capacity.
4. Delta average seating for the MD88/MD90 fleet is 153, with 117 MD88s that will soon all seat 149 and 59 MD90s seating 160. The average seating capacity is 18 seats greater for the MD89 than SWA fleet.
5. Only 2% of the new SWA fleet will be 175 seat 738s whereas our fleet is 88% 738s.
6. Top end pay for SWA's fleet this year (and assuming the 717 will be paid equally) is $210 and $147 for CA and FO. Our 737 is $174 and $119, the A320 $168 and $115, MD90 $165 and $113, MD88 $161 and $110 and DC9 $157 and $107.
7. The pay increase to achieve parity between their fleet and ours is 21 to 24% for the 737 for left and right seat, 30 to 34% for the MD88, 25 to 28% for the A320 and 27 to 30% for the MD90. So NB fleet wide is a 21 to 37% increase for parity. And that does not take into account the min guarantee difference of 78 to 70 hours for SWA and DAL.
8. 10% of the SWA fleet will be 117 seat Boeing 717s, a DC-9-30 in size. Those SWA pilots will be flying $53 and $40 per hour more than our pilots flying on DC-9-30 seats.
Why equate a larger aircraft with a broader and more difficult international mission with that of a domestic only aircraft that seats 20 fewer people?
The A320 and 319 share a very similar domestic mission profile to the SWA 737 and very similar seating average. That is a far more reasonable pay parity. But the A320/319 is smaller than the lesser paying MD88 and MD90 fleet by on average 14 seats and between the 90 and 319 the 319 is 27% smaller and their fleet sizes are equal.
I think pick the lowest common aircraft, the DC-9-30 and make them equal. If not them, then move up one aircraft on the pecking order and equal out the pay. Then adjust the higher paying A320, 737, 767, 7ER, 765, 777, 744 and 330 fleets proportionate to the pay differences now and call it a day.
Good post and logic. Sorry to keep bringing this up... but I still think what you're coming up with for a percentage pay increase to match SWA is not enough. Let's take a look at another set of numbers from a different source. "Smokey", an 11-year SWA Captain posted here his W-2 number and the number of block hours he flew for the year. Let's see what it might take a typical MD-88/90 Captain (using 12 year numbers) to match this SWA Captain.
"Smokey" - 11-year SWA Captain:
W-2 - $224,860
Block hours for the year - 761
Typical MD-88/90 12 year Captain:
Average rate of ~$163 X 75 hours per month => W-2 of $146,700
Since the 75 hours per month is credit, I guess it's possible this Captain only flies 761 block hours for the year.
Now, what percentage increase does it take to get $146,700 up to $224,680? Answer: 53%
07-05-2011, 07:42 PM
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Position: 320B
Posts: 781
So what you guys are saying is that you would like to see an opener like the American pilots gave to management back in 2006? They really should be back in section six right now from the last contract.
Serious question for those that are currently demanding a certain rate and improvements: if we go 5 years without a new contract and NO raises during that time, are you going to be praising ALPA for sticking to the hard line?
Disclaimer: I do not do any ALPA work, I have my own opinion on a minimum pay raise and believe me, it is significant. I don't expect the union to negotiate in the public, what I expect is for them to get my money and lifestyle back.
Serious question for those that are currently demanding a certain rate and improvements: if we go 5 years without a new contract and NO raises during that time, are you going to be praising ALPA for sticking to the hard line?
Disclaimer: I do not do any ALPA work, I have my own opinion on a minimum pay raise and believe me, it is significant. I don't expect the union to negotiate in the public, what I expect is for them to get my money and lifestyle back.
07-05-2011, 07:49 PM
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Posts: 2,539
Originally Posted by FedElta
Why do you find it necessary to insult everyone with an opinion different than yours ? I feel it is demeaning to you and erases the points you would like to make.
If you have a cogent, accurate comment, it will stand on it's own merit without the venom......try it sometime.
If you have a cogent, accurate comment, it will stand on it's own merit without the venom......try it sometime.
I'll take your words into consideration, as you've been one of the more balanced guys on this board. A little introspection is never a bad thing.
Thanks.
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