Originally Posted by sailingfun

That metric is better because there is a substantial difference between us and Southwest in that regard. Revenue also provides the means to pay pilots. I have seen the total block hour numbers between Delta and SW. If you compare the 737 we would only need a 8 to 10 percent raise in pay and status quo on everything else to be equal to SW.

Originally Posted by buzzpat

Huh, what? No, not exactly. I'm on the 73 and I have buddies hired at SWA after me, and that is complete and total BS. After their second year, I start to suck big time, even comparing the differences in work rules and rotation design. What sort of math are you using? We've crunched the numbers and its, on average, 35-40%. C'mon Sailing! You're losing whatever credibility you once had. If you represent what ALPA will be selling, I'm not buying.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

Much has been made about the Southwest welcome packet and the numbers they post about how well they are doing. I believe SWAPA is doing a good job representing their pilot and I am not trying to bash them, but I think they might have played a little fast and loose with their numbers in their opening presentation.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

For instance much has been made about a SWA Captain making $230,000 per year and working 12 days a month. Let’s examine those numbers. Their current pay (from the packet) is maxed out at $186.06 per TRIP which means their HOURLY pay rate is about $212. Divide $212 into $230,000 and you get 1085 hours or 90.5 hours per month. If they only worked 12 days that means they got paid 7.5 hours per day, yet they say their average duty day is 9 hours. In fact, that assumes that all of their Captains are at the maximum pay, if you take into account pilots that are not yet at their maximum then the numbers get worse. I am sorry but that is just not possible. My guess is that they are playing a few games here.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

For instance, they say that the majority of regular lines have 17 days off per month. They say their reserves have 15/16 days off per month. Yet their entire pilot group averages 18 days off per month. That doesn’t add up. What they are doing is taking into account reserve days not worked, sick days, vacation days, and other days where you were paid but didn’t actually fly; not dishonest, but if you are going to compare then you have to compare apples to apples.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

For instance Delta pilots average about 28-29 days of vacation per year that equates to about 16 days of pay. They also average around 15 days of sick time per year. If you then add in reserve days not worked, time spent awaiting OE, and many other items, you can quickly get to Delta pilots averaging 12 days or less “worked” per month. I don’t want to get into definitional games here, but remember, the SWAPA message is to convince the AirTran pilots to accept a highly unbalanced seniority integration so they are the ones playing a few games.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

My point is that people take this pamphlet, which is meant to sway the AirTran pilots’ view of this merger, and try to make it like it’s a true contract comparison. It is not. If ALPA tried to play these types of semantic games with you, you would cry foul.

Originally Posted by Flamer

If ALPAs opener is what I think it will be, I bet that 50% will happen very quick. If ALPAs defense is "these guys won't vote us out during negotiations" they are in for a surprise.

Originally Posted by BigGuns

This is correct! I have personally seen my buddies trips. They normally have 3 day trips that pay 24 tfp that equals about 20.5 hours at Delta. Is that the norm here?

I have seen my friends W-2s, they got hired with in months of me at Delta and make $45k more than me and $30k more than my buds on the 7ER... That's fact.

Propaganda or not the union shouldn't be trying to down play it, they should be using it as a rally cry!

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

If you do not like what you are getting from your Reps, force the issue. If that does not work recall them. Once recalled, put someone in that beleives what you do, and have them change the leaders of ALPA.

If you cannot get enough support for that sort of drive, it is, because the majority of the pilots in your base do not agree with the position.

The contract survey is not out yet, but will be by early fall. It is on about the same timeline that the survey was done for C2K.

Originally Posted by shiznit

True, they(SWA) do RECENTLY. Historically this has NOT been the case as mentioned ad nauseum.

Why are you done with ALPA? You don't know the opener. For the last time DALPA doesn't either, contract surveys have not been filled out by the pilots yet.

If DALPA put out a "wish list"/opener, minimum standard publication/press release right now; there are MANY posters here (including me) that would be ****ed at DALPA for making statements on behalf of the pilot group without even asking the pilots what they want first!!

DALPA cannot and will not publish, advertise, release to the media a fictitious set of demands when they don't know what the real desires of the pilots are!

(On a personal note: I look forward to the survey, all you DPA'ers who think we need "SWA pay" are managing my expectations, I have much higher standards than that.)

The SWA rally cry is low-balling ourselves at this point. The last full Sec. 6 contract DAL signed (C2K)was a record breaker, 1996 sucked, 1991 was good, etc.

Relax, don't shoot before you've aimed....

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

So I don't know who you are, but you have convinced me that I don't want you running the show. Emotional rants will get me nothing.

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

Yes, you're more comfortable with your lies and spin.

Carl