sorry for the little "munch" break in between of the scope-a-thon...

Round 2, ding!

The facts are ALPA took proposals to the negotiating table to outsource these airplanes at least a year and a half prior to bankruptcy and bragged about being the first to get bargaining credits in exchange for these sorts of labor provisions.

I cite as official sources the NWA ZIP Lines and Negotiators Notepads which were official MEC publications describing the first round of concessions, NewCo and NWA70. These airplanes now make up the "majority" you cited above yet the birth of that program was more than two years prior to the bankruptcy filing and sold to the membership as a strategy designed to avoid bankruptcy. These bargaining credits subsequently vanished in bankruptcy, but we kept the bad scope. Instead of seeking restoration and recovery of our lost scope we again "sold" it when we agreed to status quo in the JPWA (and why I voted NO).

Also, what airline has ever staffed at 4.5 crews per airplane? Especially one running jets 11.5 hours a day? Try 5.5 to 6 crews per, plus management pilots and Line Check Airmen needed to run the program & maintain certification.

Sorry to be so blunt and I do apologize. It is not my intention to be rude, i'm just getting burned out on "it wasn't our fault" and the continuation of the status quo in current bargaining.

Fundamentally, you are correct. We must understand the problem to fix it. The problem is our union thinks it can trade away one member's job security and promotional opportunities to a lower paid member of that association to benefit a narrow group of preferred members. Until we move past this belief that one pilot's job security is another pilot's "bargaining credit" we are not going to find the real collective bargaining power in unity.

For some reason some senior members have decided that unity simply has too high a cost. They totally lack the concept of how they got a union contract in the first place. They seem to think they can out run the day of reckoning that is already eating up the bottom half of our profession.

+1 Bar.
We need to fix this and fix it now.
Thing is the top half has taken a hit to, but the bottom hit will more of a hit if this path continues.
I have 30+ years left. I want to make it worthwhile. Selling scope for temporary gains in not the answer. The past proves that the gains are temporary at best, while to date the damage is permanent.

Republic has at least four operating certificates and one seniority list. Management can play games with the Certificates, but the pilots on that property are at least insulated from whipsaw within their brand. Excellent post. I'd only add that without effective scope we don't have jobs and the rest of the contract doesn't matter when when you are off the property. Scope determines when you upgrade, when you hold that coveted widebody Captain position. It is not just a "junior pilot" issue.

Our scope has provided a reverse incentive to put jets off the property. By promoting whipsaw on the lower end and forcing tremendous competition amongst DCI bidders, we have encouraged outsourcing and put direct pressure on the wages & working conditions for our smaller equipment. Now this huge investment of more than 10 billion dollars in RJ's has its own snow ball effect - when Delta needs to park jets they are going to park the ones that are paid for and that don't have huge costs while sitting in the desert. Those airplanes are more often than not their own oldest RJ's at Comair and our own 767's, 757's, MD88's and soon to be integrated DC9's.

Instead of being pleased that Compass's costs are 30% less than the other DCI bidders, we should be happy when the lowest paid pilots at the crappiest (not Compass, lets say Mesa) get a raise because frankly, we need $140 an hour rates on the E170 if we are going to get Southwest rates on our 737's.

Of outsourcing and offsetting our pay with the lowest paid regionals worked (for us, or our employers), we'd be at our historical pay plus 50% instead of C2K minus 50%. As ACL 65 has well explained, there is too much cost involved in outsourcing... be better deal is probably in-sourcing.

And to all - my apologies. I'll try to leave it alone and let this thread return to its' proper topic, the latest and greatest of the latest, greatest, airline on Earth.

Quite true, and 140 an hr is only 1.84 an hr per seat at 76 seats, and 1.59 an hr at 88 seats. Funny thing is that our 195 rates are at about 136 an hr in 2012.

I am still not sure why it is a talking point to point out CPS is 30% cheaper than any other DCI carrier.
Also of note, they would have gone for concessions from the DCI carriers(pilots) but they know that will not prove fruitful. The last place they can go to to reduce DCI costs is our Scope section. It is in effect the current battle front. We need to be ready to fight this battle and WIN the WAR.

Bucking Bar "For some reason some senior members have decided that unity simply has too high a cost. They totally lack the concept of how they got a union contract in the first place. They seem to think they can out run the day of reckoning that is already eating up the bottom half of our profession"

BB..I don't disagree with you on "some senior members," but I do believe that the majority of the senior guys do get it. The ones that don't have not figured out that they punch the time card just like the lowest paid employee.

+1 ACL

SCOPE is not just a mouthwash, it's a pain is our backsides. There is a niche for small aircraft to samll cities. But when they fly just 2 departures of these "regional aircraft" out of cities that once had 5+ mainline departures a day, makes me think we have just downsided ourselves out of certian markets. No Slowplay, I am not bashing the marketing guys. Man I wish that guy would leave me alone. :rolleyes:

How about a new union that splits our current happy DALPA members out? That way the members that are happy with our substandard compensation package relative to other like professionals, can keep the current agreement and Moak, while we "grassroots" guys actually try to better the lives of the members and not our political endeavors? I do believe that was a run-on sentence.

I motion that Carl become President and Tomcat Vice. Do I have a second?

Only recently did i find out that the pilot group of our codeshare buddy AirFrance has more than 1 union representing the entire pilot group. ALPA (50%) has the largest membership. Does anybody has any friends that work there, that can shed any light on their inter working relationship between unions, and with mgmt overall?

There were things I could type on this discussion, but ACL65 and Bucking have pretty much covered my thoughts on the subject exceptionally.

I'm getting a sticker for my flight kit that says "ACL65PILOT & BUCKING BAR SPEAK FOR ME."


For the record, I'll be there on the 23rd. We should wear nametags.