Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
12-03-2011, 07:16 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,990
Originally Posted by sinca3
I know I know.....but the press sucks!
Plane in Kansas City searched for explosives - Yahoo! Finance
Plane in Kansas City searched for explosives - Yahoo! Finance
Their life story would make a heck of a movie.
12-03-2011, 08:01 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
Just to make the math easy, let's say that before Alitalia joins the alliance, Delta has 500 units of flying and AF/KLM have 500 units. Delta is in a production balance of 50%, 500 divided by 1000. Now add Alitalia which has 100 units of flying. Delta now has 500 units of a 1100 point total. Immediately Delta has 45% of the balance, even though they haven't changed anything.
ALPA negotiated that we will now get 50% of the new 1100 point total or 550 units. Clearly, everyone can see that is a win for Delta pilots and everyone can see how the AF/KLM pilots feel a little set back by this. If the totals had gone to 450 and 650 we would be screaming.
Now, how do we get to this balance. Well you can have Alitalia shut down tomorrow and put their pilots out of work, but maybe you can see how Alitalia would not think that is a great idea. You could have AF/KLM shut down operations to the tune of Alitalia's current operation, but maybe you can see how AF/KLM would not like it. You could also have Delta flood the market with new capacity, to the tune of HALF of what Alitalia has today and drive our fares down and lose a lot of money.
Or...........you could give the alliance a time period to let Delta adjust up to the new production balance. Delta would either grow, AF/KLM/AZ would shrink or both. Either way, any rational person would see how Delta having half of a bigger pie is a win for Delta pilots, and most rational people would understand that you can't just move transatlantic capacity around like hotels in Monopoly.
So, we will be below the end state production balance as we slowly adjust to the new environment. We will grow into a higher amount of flying with time. We will then be able to monitor the new, better for Delta pilots production balance on a more rational basis. Does that make sense?
ALPA negotiated that we will now get 50% of the new 1100 point total or 550 units. Clearly, everyone can see that is a win for Delta pilots and everyone can see how the AF/KLM pilots feel a little set back by this. If the totals had gone to 450 and 650 we would be screaming.
Now, how do we get to this balance. Well you can have Alitalia shut down tomorrow and put their pilots out of work, but maybe you can see how Alitalia would not think that is a great idea. You could have AF/KLM shut down operations to the tune of Alitalia's current operation, but maybe you can see how AF/KLM would not like it. You could also have Delta flood the market with new capacity, to the tune of HALF of what Alitalia has today and drive our fares down and lose a lot of money.
Or...........you could give the alliance a time period to let Delta adjust up to the new production balance. Delta would either grow, AF/KLM/AZ would shrink or both. Either way, any rational person would see how Delta having half of a bigger pie is a win for Delta pilots, and most rational people would understand that you can't just move transatlantic capacity around like hotels in Monopoly.
So, we will be below the end state production balance as we slowly adjust to the new environment. We will grow into a higher amount of flying with time. We will then be able to monitor the new, better for Delta pilots production balance on a more rational basis. Does that make sense?
Starting point before Alitalia (LOA16 PWA required percentages):
Delta 51.7%
AFKLM 48.3%
LOA16 adjusted for the Alitalia capacity added to AFKLM (Desi's (RD) numbers)
Delta 47.2%
AFKLM/AZ 52.8%
Delta share is down 4.5% so Alitalia share is 4.5% added to AFKLM
MOU14 signed by TO and SD in June 2010:
Delta 50%
AFKLM/AZ 50%
The gain: 2.8% for Delta, due in 2014
The cost: extend compliance period from March 31, 2011 to March 31, 2014
Translation: no PWA enforcement ability from June 2010 (MOU 14 signed) to March 31, 2014 (end of current rolling three-year compliance period)
What have we "gained" since Alitalia was added:
SEP Delta EASK 45.9% (-1.3% vs pre Alitalia levels, -4.1% down vs 50%)
OCT Delta EASK 46.0% (-1.2% vs pre Alitalia levels, -4% down vs 50%)
NOV Delta EASK 46.0% (-1.2% vs pre Alitalia levels, -4% down vs 50%)
DEC Delta EASK 46.6% (-0.6% vs pre Alitalia levels, -3.4% down vs 50%)
JAN Delta EASK 46.8% (-0.4% vs pre Alitalia levels, -3.2% down vs 50%)
FEB Delta EASK 46.9% (-0.3% vs pre Alitalia levels, -3.1% down vs 50%)
MAR Delta EASK 45.8% (-1.4% vs pre Alitalia levels, -4.2% down vs 50%)
- We are not gaining anything.
- We have actually lost flying over when Alitalia was added.
- We are forcast to remain below 47.2% which is where our share of flying was after AFKLM added Alitalia.
Delta doesn't have any PWA enforcable flying obligation towards Delta pilots until 2014.
- Our flying is less than it was when Alitalia was added
- It is projected to be less than our share when Alitalia was added
- We have no ability to seek changes until 2014
- If Delta chooses to fly 49.75% for 12 months ending on March 31, 2014 all accrued flying deficit will be disregarded and Delta deemed in compliance.
Desi's (RD) own numbers put the potential 2.8% gain by 2014 at 6-7 city-pairs.
We are currently flying well below that gain (really a loss right now).
-9 city-pairs for Delta
-3 city-pairs for AFKLM/AZ
That's where we are at.
We are below our share of the production balance even when adjusted for the addition of Alitalia. We are further away from a 50% share than we were a year ago...And we can't do anything about it until after March 31, 2014.
Those are actual numbers, real data from our DALPA compliance guys sourced though DALPA channels not some made up examples to make you feel good.
This is our reality guys, face it!
Cheers
George
Last edited by georgetg; 12-03-2011 at 08:11 PM.
12-03-2011, 09:59 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 917
A4A formerly ATA
So here is an excerpt from Deltanet about the A4A on which Richard Anderson is chairman:
"Richard is chairman of the board and was present for the meeting Thursday. A summary of The Case for a U.S. National Airline Policy is available on airlines.org. It is there that the group argues for a comprehensive policy.
Foreign airlines are growing at a significant rate, reinvesting earnings in their product and expanding their global presence at the expense of U.S. airlines, with troubling implications for the entire U.S. economy, the group says."
Seems our beloved CEO is talking out both sides of his mouth!! Maybe he didn't actually say this, but he is the chairman of the board. How can the association with which he is chairman put out something like this while continuing to "code share/JV with foreign airlines?!?!?!!!
"Richard is chairman of the board and was present for the meeting Thursday. A summary of The Case for a U.S. National Airline Policy is available on airlines.org. It is there that the group argues for a comprehensive policy.
Foreign airlines are growing at a significant rate, reinvesting earnings in their product and expanding their global presence at the expense of U.S. airlines, with troubling implications for the entire U.S. economy, the group says."
Seems our beloved CEO is talking out both sides of his mouth!! Maybe he didn't actually say this, but he is the chairman of the board. How can the association with which he is chairman put out something like this while continuing to "code share/JV with foreign airlines?!?!?!!!
12-03-2011, 11:41 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Stay THIRSTY, my friends!
Posts: 1,898
Originally Posted by sinca3
So here is an excerpt from Deltanet about the A4A on which Richard Anderson is chairman:
"Richard is chairman of the board and was present for the meeting Thursday. A summary of The Case for a U.S. National Airline Policy is available on airlines.org. It is there that the group argues for a comprehensive policy.
Foreign airlines are growing at a significant rate, reinvesting earnings in their product and expanding their global presence at the expense of U.S. airlines, with troubling implications for the entire U.S. economy, the group says."
Seems our beloved CEO is talking out both sides of his mouth!! Maybe he didn't actually say this, but he is the chairman of the board. How can the association with which he is chairman put out something like this while continuing to "code share/JV with foreign airlines?!?!?!!!
"Richard is chairman of the board and was present for the meeting Thursday. A summary of The Case for a U.S. National Airline Policy is available on airlines.org. It is there that the group argues for a comprehensive policy.
Foreign airlines are growing at a significant rate, reinvesting earnings in their product and expanding their global presence at the expense of U.S. airlines, with troubling implications for the entire U.S. economy, the group says."
Seems our beloved CEO is talking out both sides of his mouth!! Maybe he didn't actually say this, but he is the chairman of the board. How can the association with which he is chairman put out something like this while continuing to "code share/JV with foreign airlines?!?!?!!!
Good point, but the A4A's new 'Raison d'ętre' if you will, is to attempt to stop our own government from giving away the store WRT the US air transport industry, and also to attempt to stop our government from developing policies that are detrimental to the home team players.
One would think that such a group would be redundant, after all its OUR government, but considering that Washington has given away virtually everything of value to our economy and completely mismanaged everything else it's been involved with, well, you can see the need.
The A4A is anti labor too, but our government has emerged as by far the biggest threat to our existence...
12-04-2011, 03:12 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
I think you should google A4A ;-)
Cheers
George
Cheers
George
12-04-2011, 03:14 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,728
Originally Posted by flyallnite
Good point, but the A4A's new 'Raison d'ętre' if you will, is to attempt to stop our own government from giving away the store WRT the US air transport industry, and also to attempt to stop our government from developing policies that are detrimental to the home team players.
One would think that such a group would be redundant, after all its OUR government, but considering that Washington has given away virtually everything of value to our economy and completely mismanaged everything else it's been involved with, well, you can see the need.
The A4A is anti labor too, but our government has emerged as by far the biggest threat to our existence...
One would think that such a group would be redundant, after all its OUR government, but considering that Washington has given away virtually everything of value to our economy and completely mismanaged everything else it's been involved with, well, you can see the need.
The A4A is anti labor too, but our government has emerged as by far the biggest threat to our existence...
I agree and you need look back no further than when they awarded the "New Air Force Tanker" contract to...Airbus! Until 60 Minutes called them on it.
And anyone remember what that True American Hero John McCain said, after 9-11, when UAL was about to go bankrupt? When asked by a reporter what would happen if all our Large International Carriers went under, he said, "Well, if they can't fly those rountes and make money, we'll just have to let the Foriegn Carriers fly them..."
And this jackarse's kid flys for American.
What a douche.
Think Cabotage can't happen? I'm counting on it happening in the next 5 to 10 years. I hope I'm wrong but I've seen nothing coming out of Washingto DC to make me think otherwise.
12-04-2011, 03:17 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
Originally Posted by sinca3
...Foreign airlines are growing at a significant rate, reinvesting earnings in their product and expanding their global presence at the expense of U.S. airlines, with troubling implications for the entire U.S. economy, the group says."
Seems our beloved CEO is talking out both sides of his mouth!! Maybe he didn't actually say this, but he is the chairman of the board. How can the association with which he is chairman put out something like this while continuing to "code share/JV with foreign airlines?!?!?!!!
Seems our beloved CEO is talking out both sides of his mouth!! Maybe he didn't actually say this, but he is the chairman of the board. How can the association with which he is chairman put out something like this while continuing to "code share/JV with foreign airlines?!?!?!!!
Delta 1x 777-200
VA 3x 777-300
And that's our starting point....
Cheers
George
12-04-2011, 03:27 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,728
Say what you will about Richard, but he's been in this business a long time (he was one of Frank Lorenzo's Lawyers when he took apart Eastern). He is definately covering all the bases by establishing links to many foriegn carriers, awaiting the end of the 51% ownership rules and Cabotage. Richard doesn't hate Pilots, he just Loves Money. He really doesn't care who flys what, as long as -he- makes Mo' Money!
That's the American way, right? So...where will all the Unemployed Americans go??
That's the American way, right? So...where will all the Unemployed Americans go??
12-04-2011, 03:33 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by georgetg
Just wait till you see our JV with Virgin Australia...
Delta 1x 777-200
VA 3x 777-300
And that's our starting point....
Cheers
George
Delta 1x 777-200
VA 3x 777-300
And that's our starting point....
Cheers
George
Go read my last post on the subject of 1 E 7 & 8.
12-04-2011, 03:35 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by Timbo
Say what you will about Richard, but he's been in this business a long time (he was one of Frank Lorenzo's Lawyers when he took apart Eastern). He is definitely covering all the bases by establishing links to many foreign carriers, awaiting the end of the 51% ownership rules and Cabotage. Richard doesn't hate Pilots, he just Loves Money. He really doesn't care who flies what, as long as -he- makes Mo' Money!
That's the American way, right? So...where will all the Unemployed Americans go??
That's the American way, right? So...where will all the Unemployed Americans go??
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