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Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
(Post 1733906)
By this logic, Lee could go to all the media outlets and say we're overpaid and deserve paycuts without any effect on us. Do you agree that he could do that?
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
(Post 1733914)
Yes I agree. There are no words that could make you want less. All the rest is webboard fluff.
You have to read his posts very carefully and with an eye towards someone purposely trying to deceive. When you read his stuff in that context, his game is really easy to spot. Carl |
Originally Posted by DALMD88FO
(Post 1734041)
I will add on one more about the survey and sick leave. There were questions about what if we had a sick bank that was paid out each year if it's not used or something to that effect. I wrote that this would be a huge mistake. Just like the flight attendants with their PPT, which can be used as sick time, it will never be used. You will have guys/gals on their deathbeds crawling into the cockpit so that they get the max payout amount. I had a system like this at a 121 supplemental airline while on furlough. You would get a quaterly bonus if you didn't call in sick and an annual additional bonus if you made it a year. I know that a lot of you will say "We know if we are too sick to fly", however I've seen to the contrary. Even under the current system at Delta.
Our current system allows us to have annual minor events with minimal effect on our exposure to major events. For example, 2 sick years ago I broke my foot and burned through about 140 hours of sick time while it was healing up. 3 months later, on June 1, my bank was reloaded and my exposure for a "major" event was returned to the level it was prior to breaking my foot. Not so under a bank system. If we had a bank system, guys would most certainly be incentivized to fly sick, return early, etc so they could "retire 2 years early..." I heard lots of fNWA guys talk about that plan when I was a new hire there. What I like about our system is that we are hedged against both short and long term events. My only input to improve the system is to increase LTD payouts to something better than 50%. United currently has 55%. I'd like to see that or 60% in C2015. That would do much more for our downside protection than incentivizing guys to squirrel away hours. |
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
(Post 1733900)
Just to be clear, negotiations are about money and data. You guys argue on webboards and think that negotiations are some PR contest. They are not. There is not one media article that will affect the outcome in any way.
Why do sellers of goods and services use advertising and marketing? Why do employers use union busting firms with all of their associated media campaigns? Why does ALPA purchase billboard space? Why during C2K did DALPA start the Delta Pilots Charitable Fund and purchase a pediatric ambulance for Children's Healthcare of Atlanta at Egleston? Why do union workers picket? I could go on and on. There is one simple reason alfa. Because these tactics have been proven to work. It IS about winning hearts and minds. It definitely involves the media and PR, both inside and outside. That's why it IS important what the President of our UNION says to the world. |
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
(Post 1733981)
I know who you are and I've actually flown with you. I know that you are probably one of the smartest numbers/computer programs guys around. You state that numbers don't lie and I agree, however numbers sometimes don't show the whole picture. Your graph shows how much we've recovered, not really made, during the past few years. On a line below us you have SWA and if you look at their progression then you would expect that our 737 rate should blow them out of the water. In reality we lag behind them by a good $6 an hour. This is usually where someone chimes in about well go to SWA then. Sorry I like a lot of guys have made the commitment to Delta. Glad to be here and think we have a bright future. I for the life of me can't understand how some just forget how much we've given up over the last decade. I've had an ALPA rep tell me how we had the best rates in the industry for 3 years before giving those unsustainable rates back. Well for 1,350 of us, we had the rates of whatever furlough job we could find. I know you have the capability Alfa. What I would ask from you is a dollar amount of how much we as a group have given back in order to put this company in the financial position it is today. We used to get a memo before every giveback LOA stating how much it was worth to the company. I asked for one of those during C2012 and ended up with a long conversation with HK. Some of the things that we gave and seemed small cost us jobs and pretty big dollar amounts. |
Originally Posted by Oberon
(Post 1733965)
I'm sorry you're bored. You throw out wild accusations and back them up with "it looks very suspicious". What is that if not McCarthyism?
Originally Posted by Oberon
(Post 1733965)
Well, I didn't used to be in your DALPA operative/company spy club and now I am and the only thing that happened was I disagreed with you, so who is trying to discredit who?
Originally Posted by Oberon
(Post 1733965)
The only person who used quotes to support his argument was me. PD and DAL 88 Driver said Moak is on record as saying we don't expect or demand gains but provided no record, you provided a list of Moak statements that weren't actually in the article, and a few people told me I should just know why they are angry.
Originally Posted by Oberon
(Post 1733965)
I have been told nothing. My only interaction with DALPA was at the new hire dinner and an email exchange about the multipurpose bank. My only interaction with management was my new hire Chief Pilot interview. Maybe Ford & Harrison is sending subliminal messages to me?
Originally Posted by Oberon
(Post 1733965)
I haven't once said or inferred that pilot costs should be minimized.
Originally Posted by Oberon
(Post 1733965)
I've never even told someone here that we can't get what they think we can get. I have told people (mostly DAL 88 Driver) they have bad ideas at getting there. On several occasions I've explained why we are in a good negotiating environment and even explained how I thought we could maximize our gains. Your portrayal of me doesn't align with actual facts.
Carl |
Alfa, r.e. the pictures of the informational picketing in DC, that you were part of, are you saying that tactic will no longer work? Why not?
The company today is making BILLIONS, and buying back stock, and giving away billions in dividends, WHY are we only getting a cost of living adjustment? If we don't have the economic leverage to restore our pay cuts TODAY, when will we EVER have it? http://r2.aviationpros.com/files/cyg...0_10438102.jpg |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 1734067)
"McCarthyism" is the standard epithet hurled by the far left when they get uncomfortable.
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Originally Posted by alfaromeo
(Post 1733967)
To be a cheerleader? Is that what you want? You are a grown man, you don't need someone to tell you how to think.
We have an outgoing union President who totally changed the organization and operating structure of the staff in Herndon. It was refocused solely on support of pilots negotiating wages and defending their contract. He energized the staff and changed the work dynamic in a very positive way. He looked out years into the future to define the threats that would leave you jobless in 10 years, well after Lee and I both retired. He has organized a combined attack on these threats to your job and to all future airline jobs. He has worked through a challenging negotiating environment that ended up with industry average wages rising 30+% during his tenure. He has increased the credibility and reach of ALPA throughout the government and the investment community. He has helped energize the airlines to work together with the union to protect our industry from a bunch of short term sellouts who will flush you down the toilet for one additional dollar. Maybe I will add the FAR 117 process that was threatened to be hijacked by some who only care about money and not safety. Let's not forget the minimum pilot requirements for an airline job, another process that was primed to get hijacked by dollar signs and not safety. And for both, I am talking about what really happened not some stupid fairy tale concocted by the DPA crowd and their ilk. Both of these were incredibly complex, detailed negotiations that brought together a variety of players, many of whom have no interest in aviation safety. I will just forget that before he became ALPA President he completely changed the paradigm of mergers and their effects on pilots. A change that is paying dividends to this day. So yeah, he really didn't accomplish anything because some dolt wrote a stupid magazine article, that made no sense at all, and now the webboard crowd has yet one other side issue to carp about. I am sorry, but he has changed this union more in the last 4 years than it has in the other 22 I have been a member. If serious people can't recognize that then heaven help us. We will be relegated to the blowhard, do nothing crowd that the Heidi people represent. At some point, you have to make a choice; do you want someone to hold your hand, pat your head and tell you how bad your life is or do you want someone to actually make your life better. Those are the stark choices we face today. Rhetoric over results or results over rhetoric. FAR 117 was and is a huge backward step for safety and has produced more fatigue. ALPA national backed it every step of the way including calling any pilot dissenters "emotional" and parroting the FAA's mantra of it being "science based." ALPA completely reversed itself and backed the REDUCTION of hours required to get in an airline cockpit. I could go on, but I feel bad about spoiling such a heartfelt love letter for Lee. Carl |
Originally Posted by DALMD88FO
(Post 1734065)
Alfa,
I know who you are and I've actually flown with you. I know that you are probably one of the smartest numbers/computer programs guys around. You state that numbers don't lie and I agree, however numbers sometimes don't show the whole picture. Your graph shows how much we've recovered, not really made, during the past few years. On a line below us you have SWA and if you look at their progression then you would expect that our 737 rate should blow them out of the water. In reality we lag behind them by a good $6 an hour. This is usually where someone chimes in about well go to SWA then. Sorry I like a lot of guys have made the commitment to Delta. Glad to be here and think we have a bright future. I for the life of me can't understand how some just forget how much we've given up over the last decade. I've had an ALPA rep tell me how we had the best rates in the industry for 3 years before giving those unsustainable rates back. Well for 1,350 of us, we had the rates of whatever furlough job we could find. I know you have the capability Alfa. What I would ask from you is a dollar amount of how much we as a group have given back in order to put this company in the financial position it is today. We used to get a memo before every giveback LOA stating how much it was worth to the company. I asked for one of those during C2012 and ended up with a long conversation with HK. Some of the things that we gave and seemed small cost us jobs and pretty big dollar amounts. Pay Banding. Think that won't cost jobs? :rolleyes: Personally, it won't help or hurt me at this point in my career, but for Oberon and the rest of the newbs, you might want to do some math before you sign on to that concept. If pay banding saves the company just 5% in manning, that's 600 new hires not needed. Or put another way, 600 pilots could retire and not need to be replaced. Take your seniority number, multiply it by .05, and that's how many guys it will put in front of you, not behind you. The further down the list you are, the greater the impact. PBS was a huge manning concession. According to DALPA, the average pilot is now flying 92hrs. a month, vs. the 75 we flew with line of time bidding. Vacation sell back (what we do today) is a huge manning concession. Reserves flying up to ALV + 15 is a manning concession. Unlimited time pickup through swap with the pot and the swap board is a manning concession. Remember, at the merger DL South had over 7,000 pilots and NW had about 5,500, together that's over 12,500 pilots. Even though we are hiring now, we aren't even back to that number yet, due to all the Synergy and manning concessions. And now the company wants more...imagine that.:rolleyes: Now, Oberon, before you (again) say you want the company to be as efficient as possible, and that you don't want to go to training as often, you might want to get your calculator out and see exactly how that's going to impact you. |
Originally Posted by Hillbilly
(Post 1733975)
That's over 4 posts per day average for every single day since you joined. :eek:
Carl |
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