First: the survey certainly provides data points to the NC. But if ALPA never releases the survey results or completion rate to us or to the company, how does 100% participation generate "unity" or "leverage?"

Second: if ALPA neeeds a survey to know we want massive gains with zero concessions...they really are out of touch.

Unity is not built by talking points or memos from MD.

I'll take that bet. What do you think it will be?

I am sure you're not dumb... just a bit amusing to read such strong opinions about our company & contract from some one who has only been on the property for what... 7 months?

During my first year, I was asking a lot more questions than giving opinions/answers ymmv.

While some of the old heads on here don't believe that history is relevant, I do.

In my 26yrs, we have gone from a profession that provided great money & qol to only pretty good... that is called a negative trend vector. (i.e., great buying power at 75hrs, 7wks vacation, touching trips, power move-ups, etc.) In fact, the top of the ziggurat was 7wks vacay, 3 on 4 off, monday or tuesday, with 60% fae! (My first year, I turned 6dys vacay into 3 weeks off with pay!)

While I fully recognize those days are gone forever, I don't think it is too much to expect a date-of-signing pay rate from a contract that existed 12 years in the past! (Not even including inflation.) And without significant concessions (I think we gave plenty during the dark years.)

Unfortunately, I am in the minority. During C2012, I repeatedly asked my newish hire FO's why they were voting yes for 3% raises in light of our bankruptcy devastation. (And after only 2 months of section 6 negotiations.) They pretty much all answered "it was more money than they had ever made". I.e., they had no clue what this profession once was.

I have stopped believing in/hoping for any great changes in our contract... maybe I'll be proven wrong. :)

And no... I don't consider, when I look around a pilot lounge and realize that one in three were not satisfied with the contract, that the vote was a "landslide".

P.s. This is not a union problem. You get the contract for which you vote.

If you were a Southwest pilot, how would you change what you've written here?

No "great changes" over the years, if you define those as changes akin to C2K.

No big givebacks during the "dark years", and certainly no trip to bankruptcy.

Is there any chance the two are related? If the pilots who found themselves ahead of us during and after the "dark years" got there with small, methodical increases and improvements, would it be better to wish for a similar trajectory instead of "great changes"?

OldFlyGuy,

Very interesting post. Perhaps Carl and Purple view their posts as "balancing" the posters that they consider "kool-aid" drinkers.

They are allowed to post opinions just as are all posters who respect the website terms of service.

I would suggest the best way to counter a post you disagree with is a rational fact filled response devoid of personal attacks. While the opinions on here vary greatly, I am confident the average DAL Pilot is smart enough to sort through the chaff and pick out the important stuff.

What specifically would you suggest?

Scoop


PS - I agree with you 100% on the importance of everyone completing a survey. :)

You must be new around here.

Okay Colonel.

I think you both will be right.

I doubt there was anything close to any kind of a universal mandate for anything concessionary, anywhere in the contract, arising from the will of the pilot group. I think we very clearly did not lobby for or ask for concessions, regardless of the perceived value of their "bargaining credit".

However the survey was more than broad enough, with tons of Sophie's Choices sprinkled throughout, that the case can and will be made, after the fact of course, that we supposedly said we'd trade X for Y if it came down to it.

There was even a shockingly disturbing line of thinking in the recent C44 "Roar". It was so disgusting I'm not even going to repeat the sheer filth of its reasoning. Its one I still think (hope) won't (likely) manifest in C2015, but the virus is out there hoping to find a willing host for the next round and its up to us to resist it with extreme predjudice.

I think its likely there will be some form of CDO's in any TA we see, but that isn't a definate, and its not necessarilly "concessionary" although it very well could be. There are other things far more likely though.

Like: reduced profit sharing, JV "forgiveness" or "monetization", longer freezes or a redefining of when an existing freeze length starts, block time at wheel spin up (even if coupled with door pay would be incredibly concessionary) and other odds and ends little work rule give aways and possibly even scope relief.

When we see TA concessions, and its highly likely we will, we will be told it was our will, and technically one will be able to point to the somewhat convoluted survey and say it was indirectly asked for, even though it never directly was.

I don't know. Plenty of time for DALPA and the company to collude and invent a "Black Swan," as Chairman Moak would say.

Longer freezes.

Loser won't post here for 12 months after MEMRAT yes vote.:cool: