Originally Posted by TenYearsGone (Post 1744795)

That is the common phrase that is spun out by many passive, non confrontational, management buddy-buddy individuals. Some other common "lines" are:
1) Time-value
2) What are you willing to give up for that?
3) More money in your pockets
4) Keep your backpacks on
5) Wallstreet will not like that
6) We need to be sensitive to the other employee groups
7) The company will never pay us that
8) 4833 was a great achievement and raise
9) Ill take a single and a double anyday

The way you get 38% is by taking a little bit more of a risk when negotiating. You educate management, the public and the employee group that the pilots have not been restored, as of yet, and restoration is a must or else--->(put what you desire in here). The Union must be onboard with restoration, if they arent, then it will never happen.

Once we achieve restoration, then we can talk about 4 or 5 % raises going forward.

IT can be done.

TEN

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 1744936)

The public and management don't care if you are restored. The pilot group certainly does but "or else" isn't much of a strategy. I assume you are talking about a strike when you say "or else". A strike is a real possibility but there are a whole lot of steps between openers and a strike. If you come in saying "or else" you will get nowhere. APA proved that.

You can continue saying "restoration" or you can attempt to determine our leverage and figure out what it might be worth.

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1744697)

Given the results of where the Delta pilot's contract leads the industry...How many areas of our industry's contracts should Delta pilots lead?

Originally Posted by Alan Shore (Post 1744787)

Cute. You make these results sound like some non-biased third-party study, as opposed to your own personal over-simplified checklist.

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1744932)

I think labor peace plus the rest of the leverage spectrum can achieve this. Not just labor peace alone.

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1744932)

The last I saw, our wages and salaries accounted for about 1.5 billion of an overall 2.5 billion dollar contract. A 38% increase in pay on day one would add 570 million in costs to Delta. Very reasonable in my opinion given the role we play and continue to play in achieving our massive profits.

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1744932)

Above represents my thoughts as to the why of 38%. How we get there is to employ the same process DALPA used to stop the DPA. Set the object, develop the strategy, relentlessly employ the tactics.

Carl

Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 1744806)

38% on day one huh?

Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 1744806)

OK.. assuming that it drags out for a couple of years. (How long is FedEx waiting now? SWA?) Each year that goes by will eat into that by a conservative 3%/year. You can do the math, I'm not gonna do it for you.

Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 1744806)

AND since you have been on top of the food chain for a million years.. hold an executive level job elsewhere... and have a pension, it is not surprising that you will be willing to wait for the brass ring. Not everybody can afford it pal.

Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 1744806)

And to use the popular vernacular... your question is a straw man. Not gonna go there, because moreover it is a stoopid question.

Originally Posted by TenYearsGone (Post 1744939)

You can continue to be TIMID, stick your head in the sand, make every excuse in the book not to be paid what you are worth and be a sheep. You are a hostage to management.

Unfortunately, a majority of this pilot group thinks like you; so getting anything other than a measly 4%-8% pay-raise will never happen.

Even with a 4-8% raise, you will feel guilty and you will want to give concessions.

Welcome to Delta!!! Another successful candidate and like-minder!

TEN

Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 1744828)

No thanks. I don't want to get sued. I know their tactics and I want no part of that. YMMV. Flame on.

Originally Posted by NWA320pilot (Post 1744838)

That's OK T the rest of us will fight for you. :D

Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 1744848)

I'm not going to dignify that with retort.

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 1744968)

Where have I said anything you just posted? I haven't even said we can't get whatever you think restoration is. What I have said is I believe saying "restoration" gives you very little* leverage. I've been ridiculed for saying that but seldom has it been argued against with anything but character attacks.

* It's slightly better than no leverage because it means something to the pilot group. I think "Restoration" can serve as a unity builder if the company stonewalls.

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 1744936)

The public and management don't care if you are restored.

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 1744936)

The pilot group certainly does but "or else" isn't much of a strategy.

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 1744936)

I assume you are talking about a strike when you say "or else". A strike is a real possibility but there are a whole lot of steps between openers and a strike. If you come in saying "or else" you will get nowhere. APA proved that.

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 1744953)

Agreed. How much do you think labor peace is worth? What other areas of leverage do you think we have?

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 1744953)

That sounds pretty reasonable. If labor peace is worth 10% that would be $150 million. Do you think this number is high or low? I'd say a company making $4 billion might value labor peace at $150 million. Maybe more, maybe less. I'm interested in arguments.

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 1744953)

You don't think DALPA is doing that? I think it's pretty clear they aren't going to use the tactics that you want but I think they are on track to do what you say aside from the 38% number since I have no idea what DALPA thinks we can get.