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Originally Posted by TED74
(Post 1883544)
I wasn't around for the famous DALPA sales job last time. I'm cautiously optimistic they learned their lesson, though, and hope this time is different. If it's NOT different, where do the opposing perspectives come from and how do they reach the masses? Please tell me this forum isn't the only alternative info source?
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Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 1883569)
You can also simply read the TA when it is presented. The numbers and predictions made with contract 2012 turned out to be spot on regarding jobs and positioning us for this contract. The forum predictions not so much!
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Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 1883569)
You can also simply read the TA when it is presented. The numbers and predictions made with contract 2012 turned out to be spot on regarding jobs and positioning us for thi
C12 was sold through lies, misdirection, and obfuscation. We self-funded improvements through concessions. It's no longer a debate. Alv+15 was sold as an international-only provision Hiring was to start almost immediately. Took more than a year. 300 early outs were promised. We didn't even get 200. We were promised we'd never see the 3-3 years due to "fleeting opportunities." Oops. Sick leave harassment lasted how many months with the "verification" loophole? Does anyone honestly think 717s hinged on C12? But the company thanks you for the 50-seat bailout. And more 76 seaters. And the RAH/DPJ cutouts. Our PS concession was disinguously hidden in the rate increase. We left money and time off at the table. Period. You are a fine company man. Keep up the good FUD. |
Originally Posted by Purple Drank
(Post 1883578)
Bull****.
C12 was sold through lies, misdirection, and obfuscation. We self-funded improvements through concessions. It's no longer a debate. I stand by my vote and still feel it was a sufficient deal at the time. The rest of the industry has followed us up, and in the case of AA exceeded us in payrates. My W2 is up significantly due to a number of improvements made in 2012. I would imagine yours is too. Call it cost neutral, self funded, whatever you want. Our pie is a lot bigger than it was pre 2012. There is no debate about that. Alv+15 was sold as an international-only provision Hiring was to start almost immediately. Took more than a year. 300 early outs were promised. We didn't even get 200. We were promised we'd never see the 3-3 years due to "fleeting opportunities." Oops. Sick leave harassment lasted how many months with the "verification" loophole? Does anyone honestly think 717s hinged on C12? But the company thanks you for the 50-seat bailout. And more 76 seaters. And the RAH/DPJ cutouts. Our PS concession was disinguously hidden in the rate increase. We left money and time off at the table. Period. I could just as easily sit here and say if we had voted no to C2012 that we would be slogging in mediation, UAL/AA/US would still trail us miserably and we would not have 717's on the ramp. Probably not exactly how it would have played out, but how can we ever know? I do know that since C2012 was ratified our rates are up ~20% and we've been getting it along the way. One could argue that if we had voted no and Richard called the bluff that we really would have left $ on the table instead of having it in my bank account and DPSP plan...back to that whole unprovable argument. ;) Now we're back a mere 3 years later for another round instead of possibly just finishing the last deal. Our industry peer comparisons are much tighter this round, favoring the upward patterning we all expect in this environment. I'm optimistic we will get a good deal and have great faith in the team that was appointed by our democratically elected reps. All 3 are very solid individuals, and I have no doubt they are in there attempting to extract as much value for you and me as they can. |
Originally Posted by TED74
(Post 1883513)
Eleven....
Originally Posted by TED74
(Post 1883544)
I wasn't around for the famous DALPA sales job last time. I'm cautiously optimistic they learned their lesson, though, and hope this time is different. If it's NOT different, where do the opposing perspectives come from and how do they reach the masses? Please tell me this forum isn't the only alternative info source?
If you're looking for the best chance of finding out the real story, you need to get close to the source - call your reps, engage the SME's and negotiators when you see them in the lounges, at PUBs and roadshows. Read the comm put out by the MEC, and question it critically if it smells like BS. Verify the source and credibility of any rumor before you let it spool you. The vast majority of sound bites being spread around are only loosely anchored in reality, if at all. It is your responsibility to yourself, your family and your fellow pilots to do your own analysis and, only then, make the best decision you can. |
Originally Posted by LeineLodge
(Post 1883594)
^^^^Opinion.
I stand by my vote and still feel it was a sufficient deal at the time. The rest of the industry has followed us up, and in the case of AA exceeded us in payrates. My W2 is up significantly due to a number of improvements made in 2012. I would imagine yours is too. Call it cost neutral, self funded, whatever you want. Our pie is a lot bigger than it was pre 2012. There is no debate about that. If you were sold anything, I suggest you do your own analysis the next time around. I'm perfectly happy accepting all information and forming my own opinion. Again this is all opinion. You state these bullets as fact, especially 717's and leaving $ on the table. It is an unprovable argument since it didn't work out that way. You can repeat it all you want, but the fact is we will never know. I could just as easily sit here and say if we had voted no to C2012 that we would be slogging in mediation, UAL/AA/US would still trail us miserably and we would not have 717's on the ramp. Probably not exactly how it would have played out, but how can we ever know? I do know that since C2012 was ratified our rates are up ~20% and we've been getting it along the way. One could argue that if we had voted no and Richard called the bluff that we really would have left $ on the table instead of having it in my bank account and DPSP plan...back to that whole unprovable argument. ;) Now we're back a mere 3 years later for another round instead of possibly just finishing the last deal. Our industry peer comparisons are much tighter this round, favoring the upward patterning we all expect in this environment. I'm optimistic we will get a good deal and have great faith in the team that was appointed by our democratically elected reps. All 3 are very solid individuals, and I have no doubt they are in there attempting to extract as much value for you and me as they can. |
Originally Posted by TOGA LK
(Post 1883614)
A little defensive? I would be too after a bonehead decision like that.
How's your W2 doing since 2012? Are we not negotiating from a better position as a pilot group (and industry wide) than we were in 2012? Insult my decision if you like. I'm pretty happy with the way things have turned out. |
Originally Posted by Purple Drank
(Post 1883534)
I'm predicting massive concessions that dalpa will attempt to bury and obfuscate. Just like C12.
Let's not fall for it again. |
Originally Posted by Purple Drank
(Post 1883578)
Bull****.
C12 was sold through lies, misdirection, and obfuscation. We self-funded improvements through concessions. It's no longer a debate. Alv+15 was sold as an international-only provision Hiring was to start almost immediately. Took more than a year. 300 early outs were promised. We didn't even get 200. We were promised we'd never see the 3-3 years due to "fleeting opportunities." Oops. Sick leave harassment lasted how many months with the "verification" loophole? Does anyone honestly think 717s hinged on C12? But the company thanks you for the 50-seat bailout. And more 76 seaters. And the RAH/DPJ cutouts. Our PS concession was disinguously hidden in the rate increase. We left money and time off at the table. Period. You are a fine company man. Keep up the good FUD. |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 1883569)
You can also simply read the TA when it is presented. The numbers and predictions made with contract 2012 turned out to be spot on regarding jobs and positioning us for this contract. The forum predictions not so much!
Post the Touch and Go's with the projections. |
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