Am I the only one?
06-27-2015 | 08:04 PM
#21
Runs with scissors
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 7,847
Likes: 0
From: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
I told him he'd better start reading, because there are so many concessions in this POS it will make his head spin!
45 minute conversation later, he's a Hell No!
Call your friends, tell them what's in this POS.
The MEC members who said they only voted Yes so that we could turn it down should also be writing Con papers, dontcha think?
Where is Nestor's Con Paper?
06-27-2015 | 08:12 PM
#22
La Familia Delta
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,467
Likes: 0
From: B-717 FO / C-17 AC
Purple I feel pretty down about this sometimes. For me this is let down #2. The first being AA's signing of their JCBA, I was shocked they passed that by such a wide margin. I thought to myself, ok maybe it barely passes. But it passed by a landslide. The fear factor with mandatory arbitration and the cost neutral requirement killed them.
So I looked at our situation at DAL and I was much more excited that our hands aren't tied. We're well on our way post merger and post bk, making tons of money and growing, good profit sharing that is ZERO risk to the company, no threat of mandated arbitration or cost neutral contracts, etc. We were literally in the drivers seat.
Then I saw that we were negotiating at a rapid pace and I thought to myself, hmmm that's odd. Having sat in on negotiations at my last company, we couldn't even get through 1 section in a 3 month span, as "slow rolling" is almost always advantageous to the company. So I immediately realized the rush wasn't by us, it was by them. Management ALWAYS drives the pace of negotiations. That's important for us to know for our careers, in good times and bad. Its worth repeating. Management ALWAYS drives the pace of negotiations.
I attended the MEC open meeting in ATL when the TA came out. I sat there while MD gave his opening speech, and all of us sitting in the back had expressions of utter shock and disappointment. Those who didn't attend got the details of the TA sent out to them by email minutes later.
The most eye opening conversation I had since Ive been here at Delta was with a man whom I have the utmost admiration for, especially after seeing how he's emerged through this whole process with full integrity intact. His name is Tom B., the c66 CA Rep. We talked about what respect means in this profession, and how this TA clearly communicates the level of respect our management team has for us.
And now here we are, voting window is open. And despite all this rationale and logic to vote no, with the best leverage we've had had in decades, and the best financial health in company history, we're about to ratify a concessionary contract. To say we were outmaneuvered is an massive understatement.
The yes voters will justify this as a "fair" contract. "The pay raise looks nice." etc etc. The no voters try to educate the pilot group on just how detrimental this TA is.. from massive scope implications, to punitive sick language, to FO seniority, to more hours worked, etc etc., to no avail.
Somewhere along the way, our pilots decided to stop reading our contract. Our PWA is 563 pages long. Not one person I know has read it. I have gone through the whole thing but I am still learning little by little as I go. Management learned that pilots don't read their contract, and outsmarted us by making it look attractive in the only section that pilots ever care to look at, section 3B, compensation.
So that's it. It came down to compensation, and not real compensation. pay rates. Our compensation package is what it is for so much more than pay rates, and we don't see it. Our own ignorance is causing our downfall. The yes voter takes the fast money and will never really understand what they gave up, because they never knew what they had in the first place
So I looked at our situation at DAL and I was much more excited that our hands aren't tied. We're well on our way post merger and post bk, making tons of money and growing, good profit sharing that is ZERO risk to the company, no threat of mandated arbitration or cost neutral contracts, etc. We were literally in the drivers seat.
Then I saw that we were negotiating at a rapid pace and I thought to myself, hmmm that's odd. Having sat in on negotiations at my last company, we couldn't even get through 1 section in a 3 month span, as "slow rolling" is almost always advantageous to the company. So I immediately realized the rush wasn't by us, it was by them. Management ALWAYS drives the pace of negotiations. That's important for us to know for our careers, in good times and bad. Its worth repeating. Management ALWAYS drives the pace of negotiations.
I attended the MEC open meeting in ATL when the TA came out. I sat there while MD gave his opening speech, and all of us sitting in the back had expressions of utter shock and disappointment. Those who didn't attend got the details of the TA sent out to them by email minutes later.
The most eye opening conversation I had since Ive been here at Delta was with a man whom I have the utmost admiration for, especially after seeing how he's emerged through this whole process with full integrity intact. His name is Tom B., the c66 CA Rep. We talked about what respect means in this profession, and how this TA clearly communicates the level of respect our management team has for us.
And now here we are, voting window is open. And despite all this rationale and logic to vote no, with the best leverage we've had had in decades, and the best financial health in company history, we're about to ratify a concessionary contract. To say we were outmaneuvered is an massive understatement.
The yes voters will justify this as a "fair" contract. "The pay raise looks nice." etc etc. The no voters try to educate the pilot group on just how detrimental this TA is.. from massive scope implications, to punitive sick language, to FO seniority, to more hours worked, etc etc., to no avail.
Somewhere along the way, our pilots decided to stop reading our contract. Our PWA is 563 pages long. Not one person I know has read it. I have gone through the whole thing but I am still learning little by little as I go. Management learned that pilots don't read their contract, and outsmarted us by making it look attractive in the only section that pilots ever care to look at, section 3B, compensation.
So that's it. It came down to compensation, and not real compensation. pay rates. Our compensation package is what it is for so much more than pay rates, and we don't see it. Our own ignorance is causing our downfall. The yes voter takes the fast money and will never really understand what they gave up, because they never knew what they had in the first place
06-27-2015 | 08:19 PM
#23
Banned
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Purple I feel pretty down about this sometimes. For me this is let down #2. The first being AA's signing of their JCBA, I was shocked they passed that by such a wide margin. I thought to myself, ok maybe it barely passes. But it passed by a landslide. The fear factor with mandatory arbitration and the cost neutral requirement killed them.
So I looked at our situation at DAL and I was much more excited that our hands aren't tied. We're well on our way post merger and post bk, making tons of money and growing, good profit sharing that is ZERO risk to the company, no threat of mandated arbitration or cost neutral contracts, etc. We were literally in the drivers seat.
Then I saw that we were negotiating at a rapid pace and I thought to myself, hmmm that's odd. Having sat in on negotiations at my last company, we couldn't even get through 1 section in a 3 month span, as "slow rolling" is almost always advantageous to the company. So I immediately realized the rush wasn't by us, it was by them. Management ALWAYS drives the pace of negotiations. That's important for us to know for our careers, in good times and bad. Its worth repeating. Management ALWAYS drives the pace of negotiations.
I attended the MEC open meeting in ATL when the TA came out. I sat there while MD gave his opening speech, and all of us sitting in the back had expressions of utter shock and disappointment. Those who didn't attend got the details of the TA sent out to them by email minutes later.
The most eye opening conversation I had since Ive been here at Delta was with a man whom I have the utmost admiration for, especially after seeing how he's emerged through this whole process with full integrity intact. His name is Tom B., the c66 CA Rep. We talked about what respect means in this profession, and how this TA clearly communicates the level of respect our management team has for us.
And now here we are, voting window is open. And despite all this rationale and logic to vote no, with the best leverage we've had had in decades, and the best financial health in company history, we're about to ratify a concessionary contract. To say we were outmaneuvered is an massive understatement.
The yes voters will justify this as a "fair" contract. "The pay raise looks nice." etc etc. The no voters try to educate the pilot group on just how detrimental this TA is.. from massive scope implications, to punitive sick language, to FO seniority, to more hours worked, etc etc., to no avail.
Somewhere along the way, our pilots decided to stop reading our contract. Our PWA is 563 pages long. Not one person I know has read it. I have gone through the whole thing but I am still learning little by little as I go. Management learned that pilots don't read their contract, and outsmarted us by making it look attractive in the only section that pilots ever care to look at, section 3B, compensation.
So that's it. It came down to compensation, and not real compensation. pay rates. Our compensation package is what it is for so much more than pay rates, and we don't see it. Our own ignorance is causing our downfall. The yes voter takes the fast money and will never really understand what they gave up, because they never knew what they had in the first place
So I looked at our situation at DAL and I was much more excited that our hands aren't tied. We're well on our way post merger and post bk, making tons of money and growing, good profit sharing that is ZERO risk to the company, no threat of mandated arbitration or cost neutral contracts, etc. We were literally in the drivers seat.
Then I saw that we were negotiating at a rapid pace and I thought to myself, hmmm that's odd. Having sat in on negotiations at my last company, we couldn't even get through 1 section in a 3 month span, as "slow rolling" is almost always advantageous to the company. So I immediately realized the rush wasn't by us, it was by them. Management ALWAYS drives the pace of negotiations. That's important for us to know for our careers, in good times and bad. Its worth repeating. Management ALWAYS drives the pace of negotiations.
I attended the MEC open meeting in ATL when the TA came out. I sat there while MD gave his opening speech, and all of us sitting in the back had expressions of utter shock and disappointment. Those who didn't attend got the details of the TA sent out to them by email minutes later.
The most eye opening conversation I had since Ive been here at Delta was with a man whom I have the utmost admiration for, especially after seeing how he's emerged through this whole process with full integrity intact. His name is Tom B., the c66 CA Rep. We talked about what respect means in this profession, and how this TA clearly communicates the level of respect our management team has for us.
And now here we are, voting window is open. And despite all this rationale and logic to vote no, with the best leverage we've had had in decades, and the best financial health in company history, we're about to ratify a concessionary contract. To say we were outmaneuvered is an massive understatement.
The yes voters will justify this as a "fair" contract. "The pay raise looks nice." etc etc. The no voters try to educate the pilot group on just how detrimental this TA is.. from massive scope implications, to punitive sick language, to FO seniority, to more hours worked, etc etc., to no avail.
Somewhere along the way, our pilots decided to stop reading our contract. Our PWA is 563 pages long. Not one person I know has read it. I have gone through the whole thing but I am still learning little by little as I go. Management learned that pilots don't read their contract, and outsmarted us by making it look attractive in the only section that pilots ever care to look at, section 3B, compensation.
So that's it. It came down to compensation, and not real compensation. pay rates. Our compensation package is what it is for so much more than pay rates, and we don't see it. Our own ignorance is causing our downfall. The yes voter takes the fast money and will never really understand what they gave up, because they never knew what they had in the first place
06-27-2015 | 08:28 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,108
Likes: 0
The significance and ramifications of this TA vote are starting to weigh on me. I'm ashamed to say it, but it is affecting my home life a little.
I've got decades--and many contracts--left in my flying career. But if this is all we can manage in this environment, imagine how ****ty this career will get in the next downturn.
If this thing passes I'm going to do everything possible to dissuade my mil and civilian buddies from applying here. If Delta thinks they have a manning problem now, wait until no one wants to work here.
Time to dust off the non-flying resume.
I've got decades--and many contracts--left in my flying career. But if this is all we can manage in this environment, imagine how ****ty this career will get in the next downturn.
If this thing passes I'm going to do everything possible to dissuade my mil and civilian buddies from applying here. If Delta thinks they have a manning problem now, wait until no one wants to work here.
Time to dust off the non-flying resume.
How could they have failed so miserablely in the best negotiating environment in history?
Why the rush?
It makes no sense. The worst example of negotiating I've ever seen by far.
06-27-2015 | 08:33 PM
#25
Moderator
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,265
Likes: 112
From: DAL 330
In my 30 years at Delta, I have seen 5 management teams and 8 contract negotiations. The only contract where we got a significant raise and retro active pay was in C2K, and that took 18 months of fighting with management, and a slogan, "Restore the Profession", and we did...for 4 years.
Good contracts do not come easily. They don't come quickly. If you want a truly historic contract you have to work hard to achieve it and you have to wait out management's BS, that they just cannot afford it. This TA actually makes money for management, not for us.
Right now, we have the best negotiating environment I have ever seen. When we did C2K, Delta had earned $1 Billion, which at the time, was a huge, never before seen profit. Last year, Delta earned $4.5 Billion. This year, Delta should earn about $6 Billion.
Our DB plan was underfunded by about $4 Billion when Delta gave it to the PBGC, and our pay cuts in 2005 were about $1.3 Billion. We are still 18% below our 2004 pay rates, and our retirement funding is tiny compared to what our DB plans were worth at the time, never mind what they would be worth going forward.
The company announced they are going to give $6 Billion to the shareholders, before they restore our sacrifices. They threw this piece of crap at us just for fun, to see if we are stupid enough to fall for a quick 8% raise, funded by concessions throughout the rest of the contract. I don't blame them for trying, but I do blame our MEC for buying into it.
We need to shoot this POS down now, and then we need to reorganize and formulate a new MEC, and a new strategy, because Proactive Appeasement has failed us, obviously, and we need to return to traditional negotiating strategy if we want to restore our profession, where Labor Risk is on the table, where it belongs.
So don't let yourself get all stressed out about this contract. But do tell your friends if they want a better contract, it's going to take a year or so, maybe more. Be patient. Don't stress out, get a puppy, or go fishing, or to the beach, just vote no and then sit back and wait. The sun will come up tomorrow and if Richard wants the Money Making Machine to keep minting billions, he's going to have to come back with a much, much better offer, or the operational performance will start to suffer, no doubt.
No bucks, no Buck Rogers.
Good contracts do not come easily. They don't come quickly. If you want a truly historic contract you have to work hard to achieve it and you have to wait out management's BS, that they just cannot afford it. This TA actually makes money for management, not for us.
Right now, we have the best negotiating environment I have ever seen. When we did C2K, Delta had earned $1 Billion, which at the time, was a huge, never before seen profit. Last year, Delta earned $4.5 Billion. This year, Delta should earn about $6 Billion.
Our DB plan was underfunded by about $4 Billion when Delta gave it to the PBGC, and our pay cuts in 2005 were about $1.3 Billion. We are still 18% below our 2004 pay rates, and our retirement funding is tiny compared to what our DB plans were worth at the time, never mind what they would be worth going forward.
The company announced they are going to give $6 Billion to the shareholders, before they restore our sacrifices. They threw this piece of crap at us just for fun, to see if we are stupid enough to fall for a quick 8% raise, funded by concessions throughout the rest of the contract. I don't blame them for trying, but I do blame our MEC for buying into it.
We need to shoot this POS down now, and then we need to reorganize and formulate a new MEC, and a new strategy, because Proactive Appeasement has failed us, obviously, and we need to return to traditional negotiating strategy if we want to restore our profession, where Labor Risk is on the table, where it belongs.
So don't let yourself get all stressed out about this contract. But do tell your friends if they want a better contract, it's going to take a year or so, maybe more. Be patient. Don't stress out, get a puppy, or go fishing, or to the beach, just vote no and then sit back and wait. The sun will come up tomorrow and if Richard wants the Money Making Machine to keep minting billions, he's going to have to come back with a much, much better offer, or the operational performance will start to suffer, no doubt.
No bucks, no Buck Rogers.
Well Said Timbo!
Scoop
06-27-2015 | 09:20 PM
#26
Runs with scissors
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 7,847
Likes: 0
From: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Our MEC had NO STRATEGY! They had NO GOALS. They put forth NO OBJECTIVES! They were of the mindset that 'any raise is a good raise, as long as it's quick'. Their motto has always been "The Time Value of Money"
Well, what about, The Jobs Value of Concessions?
They had no goal to "Restore the Profession" in spite of our historic sacrifices in 2005, and they had no strategy to put Labor Risk on the table. Richard has these idiots so buffaloed they can't say NO to him.
Even though Delta is making historic profits, and even though Richard has said he is going to return $6 Billion to the Shareholders (of which he is one of the largest) our MEC is willing to trade away profit sharing BEFORE we have been restored to 2004 pay rates!
No Goals = No Historic contract.
But hey, it was quick!
06-27-2015 | 10:45 PM
#28
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 68
Likes: 1
From: Sitting
Before the MEC sent us TA2012, I had very low expectations of what DALPA would present to us. I had heard too many excuses and justifications for failures from DALPA. Then we saw the TA and I really was shocked that it did not even meet my low expectations. Well that passed by what? 62-38%? The large percentage to pass it surprised me.
What do we all say about DALPA and management? All they are looking for is 50%+1 vote. Well ladies and gents, our management learned their lesson and are playing us for the fools that we are.
They figured that the last time it passed too easily. They almost assuredly believe that they should have taken more. Well, they certainly seemed to have learned their lesson.
What actually depresses me, like Purple, is that I am afraid that this will pass.
What do we all say about DALPA and management? All they are looking for is 50%+1 vote. Well ladies and gents, our management learned their lesson and are playing us for the fools that we are.
They figured that the last time it passed too easily. They almost assuredly believe that they should have taken more. Well, they certainly seemed to have learned their lesson.
What actually depresses me, like Purple, is that I am afraid that this will pass.
Last edited by Dynamohum; 06-27-2015 at 10:47 PM. Reason: spelling
06-28-2015 | 03:36 AM
#30
The Brown Dot +1
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,775
Likes: 0
From: 777B
I'll tell you EXACTLY HOW they did it, and WHY they did it.
Our MEC had NO STRATEGY! They had NO GOALS. They put forth NO OBJECTIVES! They were of the mindset that 'any raise is a good raise, as long as it's quick'. Their motto has always been "The Time Value of Money"
Well, what about, The Jobs Value of Concessions?
They had no goal to "Restore the Profession" in spite of our historic sacrifices in 2005, and they had no strategy to put Labor Risk on the table. Richard has these idiots so buffaloed they can't say NO to him.
Even though Delta is making historic profits, and even though Richard has said he is going to return $6 Billion to the Shareholders (of which he is one of the largest) our MEC is willing to trade away profit sharing BEFORE we have been restored to 2004 pay rates!
No Goals = No Historic contract.
But hey, it was quick!
Our MEC had NO STRATEGY! They had NO GOALS. They put forth NO OBJECTIVES! They were of the mindset that 'any raise is a good raise, as long as it's quick'. Their motto has always been "The Time Value of Money"
Well, what about, The Jobs Value of Concessions?
They had no goal to "Restore the Profession" in spite of our historic sacrifices in 2005, and they had no strategy to put Labor Risk on the table. Richard has these idiots so buffaloed they can't say NO to him.
Even though Delta is making historic profits, and even though Richard has said he is going to return $6 Billion to the Shareholders (of which he is one of the largest) our MEC is willing to trade away profit sharing BEFORE we have been restored to 2004 pay rates!
No Goals = No Historic contract.
But hey, it was quick!
Concessionary C12 is a better result.
