I don't have a solution, it's well above my pay grade. I'm throwing this out there for discussion.

Option 1: If you are removed for a LCA, you stay home and get paid. You don't get to WS, GS or GSWC. You simply stay home. (This won't address the Company's need. From management's view, we are being paid to sit at home. Therefore, they will keep pressing.)

Option 2: If you are removed for a LCA, you stay home and get paid with the voluntary option of WS, GS, or GSWC with some kind of restriction in the order of coverage. (This would partially address management's productivity issue without damaging every FO's seniority. It has the added benefit of everyone being a little dissatisfied. That means it might work.)

Option 3: All LCA trips are removed from the FO bid package. (This is a compromise of principal. It's like hitting a flea with a sledgehammer. Management gets everything they dreamed. Fail for pilots.)

But the point is there are always additional solutions to problems. That's what good negotiators do. They find additional solutions that address needs without compromise of principles. With Option 2, we acknowledge the Company has a self-induced manning problem. We assist them to deal with their performance failure without punishing ourselves in the process.

Orvil, here ya go...

FO B has 3-day on Wednesday, reports 1500 and ends 1500 on Friday.

CA A is a LCA, will be conducting OE.

The new rules.

1. Instead of releasing FO B Tuesday at 7pm, release FO B Tuesday morning at 6am.
2. If there was a trip FO B wanted to do on Tuesday or Wednesday-Friday, the pilot can pick it up at WS pay.
3. If there was no trip that FO B wanted to do on Wednesday they go to the back of the reserve list. If a 3-day pops up on Wednesday and they're out of FOs, they can give it to the pilot but it's assignment pay and it cannot start before the original show or end after the original show or it cannot be given to the pilot.
4. If no trip pops up by noon on Tuesday, the day before, the pilot is released.
5. For this, FO pay comes up 7% closer to Captain pay for the same longevity and aircraft type.

That's shooting from the hip.

So is this a productivity issue, FOs not working when originally assigned a trip or a cost issue, FOs making more money when they pick up WS/GS?

If its a true productivity issue they can pay for it. Guarantee GS pay on top of trip pay and incentivize the trip pick up. Or, leave the contract as is because it's working and there are not that many home body FOs. I will wager any amount they are already picking up WS/GS so the company won't agree to it. Seems to me the current solution gets them back in the cockpit with no loss in productivity, just an increase in cost.

This whole "problem" is invented. The LCA stuff only affects a small number of trips right? 2% is the going number. Show me the data or move on is what the negotiators need to say. The $300K stay at home pilot is not the FO, its the senior wide body captain bidding reserve. Prove me wrong, please.

Why are the pilots in such a hurry to "fix" the OE language just because the company wants it changed?

What if they said their priority was reducing pay on the 777? Would we be bending over backwards looking for a "negotiated solution" to solve their concerns?

Point being, just because they're not happy with the OE removal, it's not on us to be fixing it or finding ideas to fix it. They could manufacture "company need" on about anything in the contract. Doesn't mean that just because they brought it up, it needs a pilot concession.

I'm in no hurry to fix it. I think it's fine in the current form. I'm just acknowledging that it's a burr under management's saddle. Right or wrong, it will reappear and will need to be addressed. Let's be prepared.

If there were an authority I would hand the mec chair.... it would be to yank whatever relief for this lca issue becomes..... if in th3 opinion of the mec management is in non compliance with any other particular part or 'spirit' of the pwa.

For example..... scope. Or new equipment with no established pay rate. Or.... selective and/or punitive sick leave enforcement.....

If Orville's theory of extreme managerial angst over pilots staying home is true, then here's the fix: If FO is removed from trip for LCA, removed FO shall occupy a first class seat (domestic) or business class seat (international) for every leg of his bid trip. This is "important" to ensure operational integrity in case of trainee pilot illness or unsat performance.

This will obviously cost management thousands in lost revenue every leg and much more than letting the FO stay home, but at least that lazy FO won't be staying home. Let's see if that doesn't unmask what their real angst is over this.

Carl - Management's problem solver

Carl careful what you wish for, at one point we did have to ride along for the first 4 legs of the trip just in case the newby wasn't going to cut it. If I remember correctly it was fleet dependent where the guy sat so the MD88 fleet had to the ride the jumpseat for 4 legs.

From what I understand the company wants the productivity benefit out of it. That is why, if the rotations are pulled, the push for their system. Everyone flies. New hire with LCA, senior pilot on their next bid down that didn't have an LCA and bottom guys that used to have a line are now reserve.

It wouldn't be fleet dependent, it would be a contractual provision. The pulled FO must occupy a first class seat for every leg. That should end their "deep concern" about FO's being paid to stay home...right?

Carl

With respect to OE recovery, I posted this a couple weeks ago in the SLC Capt rep resigns thread. Applicable here:

Recovery:
It must include the following or NFW:
1. Drop trip paid 100%
2. Assigned Trip paid 100%
3. Assigned trip must fall in the footprint of the original trip, premium pay for anything outside.
4. Positive space to/from new trip
5. In base lodging provided if needed for assigned trip

This would give them the productivity they so desire and also benefit the pilot being removed for OE.