New TA
10-26-2015, 05:45 AM
#101
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: Power top
Posts: 2,959
Seriously, that's your argument for the TA? That logic is nonsense. Question, how many billions in profits before you'd say no concessions? 5, 7.5, 10, 15 billion. At what number do you say we want our pay rates, extra week of vacation we lost, paid APD, touching trips, a medical plan with some teeth, DC boost?
Scary that you're probably a Dalpa insider!
Scary that you're probably a Dalpa insider!
10-26-2015, 05:46 AM
#102
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: 7ER Capt
Posts: 461
Originally Posted by Flying Elvis
Well, if you're going to count things that didn't exist as a loss, that's fair. We'll call it lost opportunity cost.
But you'll then need to count what you didn't give up as a gain.
- You gained health privacy safeguards. I'm not sure how to put a dollar amount on that, but if you were to pay a private company to recover those safeguards, you'd be broke.
-- With that, you gained career security. Again, hard to put a number on that, unless you're the one med-down for 3 years or the rest of your career trying to get reinstated because of something your non-AME PCM mistakenly wrote on your records that the company AME found and reported to the FAA. Couldn't happen? I'd say that if it happens to even one pilot over the life of this contract and all the rest of the contracts the provisions would remain in place (indefinitely), it's not worth the cost.
-- With that, you also gained freedom from intimidation and second-guessing as to whether you should call in sick (or whether your pairing mate should call in sick instead of making you call in sick for the next rotation).
-- With that, you also gained the benefits of DAL, instead of pressuring pilots to work more, staffing correctly, or to pay you and your fellow pilots a "failure to staff correctly" bonus (green slips).
- You gained 12 hours a year more at home. Say it with me... "Hol.." "Holi.." "Holiday." No, not "Hollandaise."
-- With that, you gained about 130 more pilots on property, or the consequences of not hiring those pilots (again, green slips).
- You gained better schedules and literally millions of dollars in green slips for FOs of all seniorities instead of allowing DAL to make up for hiring insufficiencies by slick scheduling slights of hand which violate seniority and harm all FOs.
-- With that, you gained more Capt slots for those who would rather be a Capt than push up to the green slip trough like some of their more senior compatriots, and better category seniority for those already there.
I could continue and will at a later date.
But you'll then need to count what you didn't give up as a gain.
- You gained health privacy safeguards. I'm not sure how to put a dollar amount on that, but if you were to pay a private company to recover those safeguards, you'd be broke.
-- With that, you gained career security. Again, hard to put a number on that, unless you're the one med-down for 3 years or the rest of your career trying to get reinstated because of something your non-AME PCM mistakenly wrote on your records that the company AME found and reported to the FAA. Couldn't happen? I'd say that if it happens to even one pilot over the life of this contract and all the rest of the contracts the provisions would remain in place (indefinitely), it's not worth the cost.
-- With that, you also gained freedom from intimidation and second-guessing as to whether you should call in sick (or whether your pairing mate should call in sick instead of making you call in sick for the next rotation).
-- With that, you also gained the benefits of DAL, instead of pressuring pilots to work more, staffing correctly, or to pay you and your fellow pilots a "failure to staff correctly" bonus (green slips).
- You gained 12 hours a year more at home. Say it with me... "Hol.." "Holi.." "Holiday." No, not "Hollandaise."
-- With that, you gained about 130 more pilots on property, or the consequences of not hiring those pilots (again, green slips).
- You gained better schedules and literally millions of dollars in green slips for FOs of all seniorities instead of allowing DAL to make up for hiring insufficiencies by slick scheduling slights of hand which violate seniority and harm all FOs.
-- With that, you gained more Capt slots for those who would rather be a Capt than push up to the green slip trough like some of their more senior compatriots, and better category seniority for those already there.
I could continue and will at a later date.
And a great example of the true trickle down effect of work rule concessions.
10-26-2015, 06:10 AM
#103
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Originally Posted by Flying Elvis
Well, if you're going to count things that didn't exist as a loss, that's fair. We'll call it lost opportunity cost.
But you'll then need to count what you didn't give up as a gain.
- You gained health privacy safeguards. I'm not sure how to put a dollar amount on that, but if you were to pay a private company to recover those safeguards, you'd be broke.
-- With that, you gained career security. Again, hard to put a number on that, unless you're the one med-down for 3 years or the rest of your career trying to get reinstated because of something your non-AME PCM mistakenly wrote on your records that the company AME found and reported to the FAA. Couldn't happen? I'd say that if it happens to even one pilot over the life of this contract and all the rest of the contracts the provisions would remain in place (indefinitely), it's not worth the cost.
-- With that, you also gained freedom from intimidation and second-guessing as to whether you should call in sick (or whether your pairing mate should call in sick instead of making you call in sick for the next rotation).
-- With that, you also gained the benefits of DAL, instead of pressuring pilots to work more, staffing correctly, or to pay you and your fellow pilots a "failure to staff correctly" bonus (green slips).
- You gained 12 hours a year more at home. Say it with me... "Hol.." "Holi.." "Holiday." No, not "Hollandaise."
-- With that, you gained about 130 more pilots on property, or the consequences of not hiring those pilots (again, green slips).
- You gained better schedules and literally millions of dollars in green slips for FOs of all seniorities instead of allowing DAL to make up for hiring insufficiencies by slick scheduling slights of hand which violate seniority and harm all FOs.
-- With that, you gained more Capt slots for those who would rather be a Capt than push up to the green slip trough like some of their more senior compatriots, and better category seniority for those already there.
I could continue and will at a later date.
But you'll then need to count what you didn't give up as a gain.
- You gained health privacy safeguards. I'm not sure how to put a dollar amount on that, but if you were to pay a private company to recover those safeguards, you'd be broke.
-- With that, you gained career security. Again, hard to put a number on that, unless you're the one med-down for 3 years or the rest of your career trying to get reinstated because of something your non-AME PCM mistakenly wrote on your records that the company AME found and reported to the FAA. Couldn't happen? I'd say that if it happens to even one pilot over the life of this contract and all the rest of the contracts the provisions would remain in place (indefinitely), it's not worth the cost.
-- With that, you also gained freedom from intimidation and second-guessing as to whether you should call in sick (or whether your pairing mate should call in sick instead of making you call in sick for the next rotation).
-- With that, you also gained the benefits of DAL, instead of pressuring pilots to work more, staffing correctly, or to pay you and your fellow pilots a "failure to staff correctly" bonus (green slips).
- You gained 12 hours a year more at home. Say it with me... "Hol.." "Holi.." "Holiday." No, not "Hollandaise."
-- With that, you gained about 130 more pilots on property, or the consequences of not hiring those pilots (again, green slips).
- You gained better schedules and literally millions of dollars in green slips for FOs of all seniorities instead of allowing DAL to make up for hiring insufficiencies by slick scheduling slights of hand which violate seniority and harm all FOs.
-- With that, you gained more Capt slots for those who would rather be a Capt than push up to the green slip trough like some of their more senior compatriots, and better category seniority for those already there.
I could continue and will at a later date.
Just curious, are these the items you feel are so onerous on the medical records issue?
A pilot who is required to verify his sickness under Section 14 F. 4. may be required to provide the Company with a written authorization for release of medical information (release), provided the release is limited to: 1. the specific sickness for which the pilot claimed sick leave, 2. the day(s) on which the pilot claimed sick leave and the consecutive day(s) off immediately preceding and succeeding the day(s) on which a pilot claimed sick leave, and 3. a Company designated doctor or other health care professional(s) and the Director – Health Services and the Senior Vice-President of Flight Operations.
Regardless of whether a pilot has a current First Class Medical Certificate, the Director – Health Services (DHS) may review the medical records of a pilot: a. who receives an FAA special issuance medical certificate, b. who seeks to return to flight duty after being absent for at least four months for medical reasons, or c. when there is reason to believe he may not meet the physical standards. 2. A pilot undergoing medical review under this section will give the DHS access to all medical records requested by the DHS. 3. The DHS may require a medical evaluation of a pilot holding a valid First Class Medical Certificate. This medical evaluation will be limited to the nature of the First Class Medical physical standard(s) in question. 4. The DHS and the ALPA Aeromedical Advisor will confer on the choice of the Company Medical Examiner (CME) prior to sending the pilot for evaluation, if the pilot releases the pertinent information to the ALPA Aeromedical Advisor. 5. The DHS will select the CME. 6. Medical information provided by the DHS to the CME will be limited to medically relevant information provided by doctors and treating facilities.
10-26-2015, 06:20 AM
#104
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Left seat of a little plane
Posts: 2,397
Originally Posted by LivingTheDream
Awesome... then logic would dictate that we dismantle the union, stop paying dues, line up on our knees, hold out our bowls and say:
"please sir, may I have some more"...
Or.... we get rid of the old guard union types, (know any of those?) and actually have a union again...
You know, since we are making more PROFITS than during the entire history of manned flight!
There can be only one choice for RESTORATION:
Sam DeRosa
0961094 (Scott Martin write-in)
Jimmy Johnson
Chris Kern
VOTE NOW!
THEN tell three friends to vote the above ticket!
"please sir, may I have some more"...
Or.... we get rid of the old guard union types, (know any of those?) and actually have a union again...
You know, since we are making more PROFITS than during the entire history of manned flight!
There can be only one choice for RESTORATION:
Sam DeRosa
0961094 (Scott Martin write-in)
Jimmy Johnson
Chris Kern
VOTE NOW!
THEN tell three friends to vote the above ticket!
And as a no voter (who would do the same again, despite what the "math guy" says) I still need to remind us all that we need to live in the real world.
The NMB ultimately has a stranglehold on the process, a process which by design is meant to be slow, methodical, etc. That usually works against us. Occasionally it works in our favor when times are tough and we have a lucrative contract--then mgmt is the one bemoaning the slow "process."
But more often than not the process is stacked against us. That doesn't mean that we don't negotiate strongly, and walk away if needed. But wearing orange, shouting "Restoration!" from the mountaintops (repeatedly) or making endless Facebook and message board posts really amounts to very little. At some point we need to acknowledge that there are two sides to any negotiation.
The company's record profits are to our benefit negotiation-wise, but that doesn't mean we get everything we want any time we want, any more than the company gets everything they want when times are tough. For those who claim we gave up a lot in BK...they are totally correct. But if you saw the company's opener they wanted a whole lot more (which I have never forgotten, by the way, lest I get too pro-company in my thoughts).
I don't for one nano-second believe the "math guy" when he says that our No vote was driven by some secret DPA and PMNW cabal. Most of us just voted no based on the language.
So the process is currently on a slower track right now. I know that at some point, hopefully by next summer, we will get a good agreement, and one that acknowledges both sides of the table.
10-26-2015, 06:37 AM
#105
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: stake holder ir.delta.com
Posts: 10,026
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
You know, my original post was unnecessarily toxic, and I apologize for that. That is what you get when hastily typing stuff out on your phone.
And as a no voter (who would do the same again, despite what the "math guy" says) I still need to remind us all that we need to live in the real world.
The NMB ultimately has a stranglehold on the process, a process which by design is meant to be slow, methodical, etc. That usually works against us. Occasionally it works in our favor when times are tough and we have a lucrative contract--then mgmt is the one bemoaning the slow "process."
But more often than not the process is stacked against us. That doesn't mean that we don't negotiate strongly, and walk away if needed. But wearing orange, shouting "Restoration!" from the mountaintops (repeatedly) or making endless Facebook and message board posts really amounts to very little. At some point we need to acknowledge that there are two sides to any negotiation.
The company's record profits are to our benefit negotiation-wise, but that doesn't mean we get everything we want any time we want, any more than the company gets everything they want when times are tough. For those who claim we gave up a lot in BK...they are totally correct. But if you saw the company's opener they wanted a whole lot more (which I have never forgotten, by the way, lest I get too pro-company in my thoughts).
I don't for one nano-second believe the "math guy" when he says that our No vote was driven by some secret DPA and PMNW cabal. Most of us just voted no based on the language.
So the process is currently on a slower track right now. I know that at some point, hopefully by next summer, we will get a good agreement, and one that acknowledges both sides of the table.
And as a no voter (who would do the same again, despite what the "math guy" says) I still need to remind us all that we need to live in the real world.
The NMB ultimately has a stranglehold on the process, a process which by design is meant to be slow, methodical, etc. That usually works against us. Occasionally it works in our favor when times are tough and we have a lucrative contract--then mgmt is the one bemoaning the slow "process."
But more often than not the process is stacked against us. That doesn't mean that we don't negotiate strongly, and walk away if needed. But wearing orange, shouting "Restoration!" from the mountaintops (repeatedly) or making endless Facebook and message board posts really amounts to very little. At some point we need to acknowledge that there are two sides to any negotiation.
The company's record profits are to our benefit negotiation-wise, but that doesn't mean we get everything we want any time we want, any more than the company gets everything they want when times are tough. For those who claim we gave up a lot in BK...they are totally correct. But if you saw the company's opener they wanted a whole lot more (which I have never forgotten, by the way, lest I get too pro-company in my thoughts).
I don't for one nano-second believe the "math guy" when he says that our No vote was driven by some secret DPA and PMNW cabal. Most of us just voted no based on the language.
So the process is currently on a slower track right now. I know that at some point, hopefully by next summer, we will get a good agreement, and one that acknowledges both sides of the table.
RESTORATION is not an unachievable long shot. It is a sensible request from a company making all time record profits, not just in its own history but the history of the entire industry. The rest of the employees of this company were restored long ago. Its about time we are as well!
If there is such angst over the companies opener then let it be shown to the masses. We will reject it loud and clear for you. The starting point is not relevant. I could say our opener is to double our pay and be awarded stock options, full medical coverage until death, retirement at 60% FAE, and 50 days of flex time a year. Does that mean anything as an opener to the company?
If I am asked what I would be willing to give up to achieve RESTORATION, my answer will be ALPA. If there is not a forceful effort to achieve what the pilots are willing to fight for now, during the best economic times the industry has ever seen, then there never will be.
Last edited by notEnuf; 10-26-2015 at 07:12 AM.
10-26-2015, 06:41 AM
#106
La Familia Delta
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B-717 FO / C-17 AC
Posts: 2,467
Herk, negotiations is certainly a 2 way street, but I argue the company already got what it needed - both in BK and now in this failed TA, by lowering our expectations to that of just holding on to what we have for dear life. I don't think protecting our work rules and asking for restoration of pay makes us greedy, I think that is exactly a fair deal considering what we will never get back. I understand the company's opener was quite ambitious, but we had a contract opener too, which was quote fair. Go back and take a look at how many of our contract opener goals we achieved... The answer is zero. We got not one thing we asked for. Now that's not what I call good faith negotiations
10-26-2015, 07:11 AM
#107
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Excuse me.
According to the former ALPA National President and former Del... I guess current Delta pilot, our contact is mature. You only change the fringe stuff. To my knowledge that statement has not changed.
So restoration is more than fringe.
Therefore ALPA National does not stand with you keyboard warriors.
I don't have a solution, just pointing out an obvious problem. Kind of like having your union officers aspire to be in charge of your national Union that also represents those who the company outsources your work too.
^^^ Special Committee flaming flamebait.
According to the former ALPA National President and former Del... I guess current Delta pilot, our contact is mature. You only change the fringe stuff. To my knowledge that statement has not changed.
So restoration is more than fringe.
Therefore ALPA National does not stand with you keyboard warriors.
I don't have a solution, just pointing out an obvious problem. Kind of like having your union officers aspire to be in charge of your national Union that also represents those who the company outsources your work too.
^^^ Special Committee flaming flamebait.
10-26-2015, 07:35 AM
#108
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,868
[QUOTE=Herkflyr;1999891]
I don't for one nano-second believe the "math guy" when he says that our No vote was driven by some secret DPA and PMNW cabal. Most of us just voted no based on the language.
That whole thought process cracks me up. If the DALPA Old Guard believes this then they are in denial.
The TA failed because 66% of the Pilots saw it as lacking. Period. No secret DPA meeting at midnight, in a clearing, under a full moon, dancing around a bonfire, burning DALPA Officers in effigy had anything to do with it.
Scoop
I don't for one nano-second believe the "math guy" when he says that our No vote was driven by some secret DPA and PMNW cabal. Most of us just voted no based on the language.
That whole thought process cracks me up. If the DALPA Old Guard believes this then they are in denial.
The TA failed because 66% of the Pilots saw it as lacking. Period. No secret DPA meeting at midnight, in a clearing, under a full moon, dancing around a bonfire, burning DALPA Officers in effigy had anything to do with it.
Scoop
10-26-2015, 07:37 AM
#109
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
[QUOTE=Scoop;1999930]
I don't for one nano-second believe the "math guy" when he says that our No vote was driven by some secret DPA and PMNW cabal. Most of us just voted no based on the language.
That whole thought process cracks me up. If the DALPA Old Guard believes this then they are in denial.
The TA failed because 66% of the Pilots saw it as lacking. Period. No secret DPA meeting at midnight in a clearing, under a full moon, dancing around a bonfire had anything to do with it.
Scoop
The only guys dancing around a bonfire under a full moon were the special committee types.
I think they were all wearing orange speedos too.
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
I don't for one nano-second believe the "math guy" when he says that our No vote was driven by some secret DPA and PMNW cabal. Most of us just voted no based on the language.
That whole thought process cracks me up. If the DALPA Old Guard believes this then they are in denial.
The TA failed because 66% of the Pilots saw it as lacking. Period. No secret DPA meeting at midnight in a clearing, under a full moon, dancing around a bonfire had anything to do with it.
Scoop
I think they were all wearing orange speedos too.
10-26-2015, 07:54 AM
#110
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 341
[QUOTE=Scoop;1999930][QUOTE=Herkflyr;1999891]
I don't for one nano-second believe the "math guy" when he says that our No vote was driven by some secret DPA and PMNW cabal. Most of us just voted no based on the language.
That whole thought process cracks me up. If the DALPA Old Guard believes this then they are in denial.
The TA failed because 66% of the Pilots saw it as lacking. Period. No secret DPA meeting at midnight, in a clearing, under a full moon, dancing around a bonfire, burning DALPA Officers in effigy had anything to do with it.
How ironic that our own union (old guard) is applying the age old management tactic of divide and conquer to retain their power. What happened to the Alpa tag line of strength in numbers and Unity? I guess that only applies when it furthers the Moakists agenda.
There is no longer any doubt who side these tools are on.
I don't for one nano-second believe the "math guy" when he says that our No vote was driven by some secret DPA and PMNW cabal. Most of us just voted no based on the language.
That whole thought process cracks me up. If the DALPA Old Guard believes this then they are in denial.
The TA failed because 66% of the Pilots saw it as lacking. Period. No secret DPA meeting at midnight, in a clearing, under a full moon, dancing around a bonfire, burning DALPA Officers in effigy had anything to do with it.
How ironic that our own union (old guard) is applying the age old management tactic of divide and conquer to retain their power. What happened to the Alpa tag line of strength in numbers and Unity? I guess that only applies when it furthers the Moakists agenda.
There is no longer any doubt who side these tools are on.
