New TA
10-30-2015 | 01:34 PM
#221
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 2,960
Likes: 0
From: Power top
People like xray have done exactly what management intended: they bought off on a complete distraction, internalized it and are now on board with anything the company tells them. Its very sad to watch because it indicates a complete failure of independent thought. It also reveals two things:
1) We as pilots generally do not understand our self-worth. I am not sure how this happened, since we are mostly a Type-A bunch, but sometimes our machismo turns into cowardice the minute our strength is tested. This company propaganda is no exception. Having a backbone in this industry makes a big difference. People like xray need to show some backbone.
2) We trust management over our own pilots. When did this happen and why? This divide and conquer campaign by management failed. We are stronger than ever. They campaign continues with remarks of how stupid we were to vote no and how much money we left on the table. We kept our profit sharing, our scope, and our sick leave. That's worth a heck of a lot more than 8% and they know it, hence their frustration. We cant keep buying into the messages the company puts out. It serves their purpose. They've done nothing but extract from us and given nothing in return.
The minute they tried to take their own executive bonuses out of our PS in the new PTIX formula is the minute I confirmed that these are not good people. That level of selfishness coming from $10 to $20 Million a year executives is far more unacceptable than a handful of pilots abusing sick leave. And to me that's about as apples to apples of a comparison as you can get. And to hear a yes voter justify that attempt by management is very disturbing.
Please fellow pilots wake up and see what theyre doing to us.
1) We as pilots generally do not understand our self-worth. I am not sure how this happened, since we are mostly a Type-A bunch, but sometimes our machismo turns into cowardice the minute our strength is tested. This company propaganda is no exception. Having a backbone in this industry makes a big difference. People like xray need to show some backbone.
2) We trust management over our own pilots. When did this happen and why? This divide and conquer campaign by management failed. We are stronger than ever. They campaign continues with remarks of how stupid we were to vote no and how much money we left on the table. We kept our profit sharing, our scope, and our sick leave. That's worth a heck of a lot more than 8% and they know it, hence their frustration. We cant keep buying into the messages the company puts out. It serves their purpose. They've done nothing but extract from us and given nothing in return.
The minute they tried to take their own executive bonuses out of our PS in the new PTIX formula is the minute I confirmed that these are not good people. That level of selfishness coming from $10 to $20 Million a year executives is far more unacceptable than a handful of pilots abusing sick leave. And to me that's about as apples to apples of a comparison as you can get. And to hear a yes voter justify that attempt by management is very disturbing.
Please fellow pilots wake up and see what theyre doing to us.
10-30-2015 | 02:20 PM
#222
La Familia Delta
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,467
Likes: 0
From: B-717 FO / C-17 AC
First of all, when calling in sick, you eventually have to call in well. Whether thats inside the original rotation footprint or not, makes no nevermind.
Second, picking up that trip at gs pay or otherwise is helping the company staff a trip and preventing a cancellation. You should be thanking that individual.
Instead you bought off on a baseless argument.
10-30-2015 | 02:33 PM
#223
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 137
Likes: 1
From: Gold-Braided Lesser French Fort Commander
Wait. Delta doesn't currently have any holiday pay!?
I agree. An easy compromise is to offer holiday/double pay. Also, another idea would be to offer paid time off (pto) like JetBlue. You can sell it back for 150% of current pay - not the pay when you accumulated it
. The key would be a higher acrual rate than JB. accumulate 13-14 hours per month as a 1st year guy, and let is increase to 15-17 hours per month.
I agree. An easy compromise is to offer holiday/double pay. Also, another idea would be to offer paid time off (pto) like JetBlue. You can sell it back for 150% of current pay - not the pay when you accumulated it
. The key would be a higher acrual rate than JB. accumulate 13-14 hours per month as a 1st year guy, and let is increase to 15-17 hours per month.Delta pilots already have holiday pay - it's called a Greenslip.
Now before you all jump on me, just keep in mind that there are always unintended consequences to any action, or reaction. Just look at the Reserve Manning coverage for every month and you will notice that since we recently won the ability to move our x-days off, combined with the fact that holidays and weekends pay the same as normal days you will notice that all weekends and holidays invariably shift to minimum manning, while becoming over-staffed the next Mon-Thurs. THAT'S our contract at work: people bid what they want/can hold, and then swap/drop/shift days and trips to get closer to the ideal line they seek, all within the confines of the PBS and contract rules. Very flexible. Flexibility is valuable to us pilots. Essential, in fact, to a long career (...and to airpower...)
All of this generates a huge greenslip swell as the Company prefers min-staffing models to control cost, albeit at a slight risk premium. This Greenslip swell is rife with inefficiencies that many pilots can surf, at huge payoffs, depending on how much time you wish to spend tweaking the system. Or gives you the flexibility to enjoy your time off.
Offer holiday pay and this changes the entire manning system. And probably not for the better. This solves huge problems for the Company and makes us much more efficient. For less pay. Be careful of what you ask for, as sometimes we need to protect ourselves from ourselves.
This is another of those second- and third- order costs that we don't readily recognize that Management might be all to happy to jump on. Don't fall for the easy fodder. When someone offers you something for free, beware - they might just be after your wallet!
10-30-2015 | 02:43 PM
#224
La Familia Delta
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,467
Likes: 0
From: B-717 FO / C-17 AC
Delta pilots already have holiday pay - it's called a Greenslip.
Now before you all jump on me, just keep in mind that there are always unintended consequences to any action, or reaction. Just look at the Reserve Manning coverage for every month and you will notice that since we recently won the ability to move our x-days off, combined with the fact that holidays and weekends pay the same as normal days you will notice that all weekends and holidays invariably shift to minimum manning, while becoming over-staffed the next Mon-Thurs. THAT'S our contract at work: people bid what they want/can hold, and then swap/drop/shift days and trips to get closer to the ideal line they seek, all within the confines of the PBS and contract rules. Very flexible. Flexibility is valuable to us pilots. Essential, in fact, to a long career (...and to airpower...)
All of this generates a huge greenslip swell as the Company prefers min-staffing models to control cost, albeit at a slight risk premium. This Greenslip swell is rife with inefficiencies that many pilots can surf, at huge payoffs, depending on how much time you wish to spend tweaking the system. Or gives you the flexibility to enjoy your time off.
Offer holiday pay and this changes the entire manning system. And probably not for the better. This solves huge problems for the Company and makes us much more efficient. For less pay. Be careful of what you ask for, as sometimes we need to protect ourselves from ourselves.
This is another of those second- and third- order costs that we don't readily recognize that Management might be all to happy to jump on. Don't fall for the easy fodder. When someone offers you something for free, beware - they might just be after your wallet!
Now before you all jump on me, just keep in mind that there are always unintended consequences to any action, or reaction. Just look at the Reserve Manning coverage for every month and you will notice that since we recently won the ability to move our x-days off, combined with the fact that holidays and weekends pay the same as normal days you will notice that all weekends and holidays invariably shift to minimum manning, while becoming over-staffed the next Mon-Thurs. THAT'S our contract at work: people bid what they want/can hold, and then swap/drop/shift days and trips to get closer to the ideal line they seek, all within the confines of the PBS and contract rules. Very flexible. Flexibility is valuable to us pilots. Essential, in fact, to a long career (...and to airpower...)
All of this generates a huge greenslip swell as the Company prefers min-staffing models to control cost, albeit at a slight risk premium. This Greenslip swell is rife with inefficiencies that many pilots can surf, at huge payoffs, depending on how much time you wish to spend tweaking the system. Or gives you the flexibility to enjoy your time off.
Offer holiday pay and this changes the entire manning system. And probably not for the better. This solves huge problems for the Company and makes us much more efficient. For less pay. Be careful of what you ask for, as sometimes we need to protect ourselves from ourselves.
This is another of those second- and third- order costs that we don't readily recognize that Management might be all to happy to jump on. Don't fall for the easy fodder. When someone offers you something for free, beware - they might just be after your wallet!
10-30-2015 | 05:42 PM
#225
Quality of Lifer
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 691
Likes: 5
From: M88A
Good discussion, but I think the issue here is that you are viewing a holiday like it is a special day that currently enables everyone to fly at a premium. This is not the case, as generally speaking, block hours are sometimes as low as 60 percent less on a holiday than they are on other days for obvious reasons. Second, holiday pay does not magically solve staffing issues for the remainder of the month, and by your theory, all that would do is increase the amount of greenslips on other days of the month. So actually, by offering holiday premium pay, you end up in more money in the pilots pockets with more non-holiday greenslips. What holiday pay does do, however, is calls the company's bluff on sick leave usage. They believe sick calls go up on holidays. Call their bluff and stick holiday pay on there and watch them backpedal. They've already said no to holiday pay anyway since I think that was part of our contract opener...
10-30-2015 | 05:57 PM
#226
Racketeer
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 13,327
Likes: 817
From: N60.4858 W149.9327
I am tired of eating Chinese on Christmas because its the only thing open while spending an extra long layover at a minimally staffed hotel because we don't fly much on the actual holiday, rather the shoulder days around it. If I knew during bidding it would earn me double pay, it might change my mind.
Well maybe not me but somebody. Now that I can hold good vacations and holidays off I've been told I will no longer miss Christmas with the kids. If half the crews have off while the other half is working this would definitely benefit more pilots than just the green slips.
Well maybe not me but somebody. Now that I can hold good vacations and holidays off I've been told I will no longer miss Christmas with the kids. If half the crews have off while the other half is working this would definitely benefit more pilots than just the green slips.
11-02-2015 | 06:00 PM
#228
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,353
Likes: 54
From: 765A
You can bury your head in the sand if you want. Sick leave abuse does take place.we can argue about the amount, but it happens.
I have no problem with the concept of sick leave changes that target the actual abusers. I didn't like the TA, it went to far in that area and many others. If you don't like my opinion, oh well.
11-02-2015 | 06:22 PM
#230
Works Every Weekend
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,506
Likes: 0
From: 737 ATL
ftb-
Those were the old days. Speed, mileage, gross weight.
You can't easily convert that contract to compare with today's numbers.
The "rates" were per minute. Not per hour. Every pilot's per minute rate was the same. Then we got paid extra on top of the per minute rate based on aircraft speed, mileage flown per leg and aircraft gross weight.
There was also night pay and a relatively larger international override, etc. etc.
Those were the old days. Speed, mileage, gross weight.
You can't easily convert that contract to compare with today's numbers.
The "rates" were per minute. Not per hour. Every pilot's per minute rate was the same. Then we got paid extra on top of the per minute rate based on aircraft speed, mileage flown per leg and aircraft gross weight.
There was also night pay and a relatively larger international override, etc. etc.
