If I have an 8 hour FDP and 5 hours of flying and due to weather divert and am at 11 hours, then I reported fit for duty and could now be unfit before the max duty period even prior to the extension. You need to report fit for the scheduled duty period not some hypothetical extension.

BTW if the fire alarm sounds at 3am I have not had an uninterrupted 8 hour sleep opportunity.

 

In the past when this has happened to me and fatigue is an issue, I have told tracking that we are going to the hotel.... I am turning my phone off... After we are rested, I will make whatever calls are necessary... Sometimes you have to be a Capt.

As far as fit for duty... Had a deal in Asia recently where we were not getting enough rest after multiple re-routed long days... Called tracking 13hrs ahead to inform them we were not continuing after landing (So they could recover the next flt... It was the NRT hotel with multiple re-crewing options)... Tracking tried to force us to continue via acars in route with min rest... I said nope... Went to hotel for 24hr needed break, then continued on... Stood my ground with the Chief (who was very understanding with zero push back)... Again, sometimes you have to be a Capt...

P.s. As long as we're in the pointy end, there can be no compromising safety...

P.p.s. We should have SW's wording in our contract: "No CPO involvement for fatigue or fit for duty calls... all pay protected". Period. (They have the same wording for sick calls... )

 

Agree. What's more difficult is when you're (junior) in the right seat and have to be the captain. I believe I made a mistake accepting the extension on my most recent reroute and will likely act differently in the future.

At the risk of the usual flaming I seem to attract, I'll share my rr in more detail since I think my experience might help other inexperienced FOs in a similar situation. When we got the extra leg I was leaning towards not extending, the captain was very confident in his ability to accept the extension and I allowed him to sway my decision. It started small -- tracking gave us only 20 minutes to turn the plane and ferry it back to ATL to beat the extension clock. It was going to be our 6th leg of the day, we were leaving AVL after midnight, it is mountainous terrain, and we're operating off the taxiway which in DAL's opinion, raises the threat level of the airfield to where it is a captain-only takeoff and landing on a clear bright sunny day on your 1st leg. We had both made a few minor errors on the inbound leg -- nothing safety related, just a few little things that in retrospect I can attribute to being tired.

So then the snowball starts. No, we're not taking the jet we just brought in back to ATL, we're bringing a hangar queen that has been broke for 3 days and tech ops is still working on it. Then there's no plane in sight. Oh, it's at the GA ramp. And it's midnight, nobody to take us there, so time to walk out the airport and then walk to the GA ramp dragging our bags. We get to the plane and now we've got 2 guys from tech ops in our faces who are tired and angry they've been stuck in AVL for the last 3 days and want nothing more than to go home. We handle a few minor MX issues and crank engines, and the air stairs become a distant memory. But wait, where's the FSR? Can't raise anybody on the radio to bring them back. After phone calls back to dispatch and load control, 20 minutes later we get an FSR and depart around 0100 -- well into our extension. We finally blast and as we climb through 10k the captain can't get the AP to engage so it will be hand flown the rest of the way. But wait, what's he doing? He's mashing the approach/land button instead of the autopilot and can't figure out why the AP won't engage. I didn't notice he was hitting the wrong button but out of habit gave it a try myself and of course it worked just fine. Fit for duty?

In retrospect it was probably a poor idea to extend. There was never one smoking gun on the ground that told us that we need to go to the hotel now, just a bunch of little things that kept adding up and we didn't even realize we shouldn't be going. The next day on the van back to the airport, I thought this was something we should debrief with clear minds and expressed my opinion that while we thought it was correct at the time, in retrospect it was a mistake. I brought up all the issues I mentioned here and still the captain was adamant that he was just fine and at the time, there was no reason to not sign the extension. We safely executed the flight, never came close to breaking an FAR or bending metal so maybe he was right and I'm wrong. That said, it's easy to forget that the captain's 51% voting rights go out the window when it's time to decide if you're going to extend. If given a similar scenario in the future, if I'm going to err one way or the other I'd rather be explaining myself to the CP why I didn't go instead of writing a story here why I think I shouldn't have.

 

I hope you submitted all this on a ASAP. This is probably not the right place to post it.

 

Couple of important points here from the Fatigue class I attended last year headed by DW (ALPA safety chair).

You can't preemptively not elect to extend. The key time is after you have exceeded your duty day without the extension. I know we're trying to save the day (operation) but you have to look out for yourselves and other pilot in this case.

Second point is the phrase is "I'm/we're not fit to continue". Using "fatigue" brings a whole different level of complexity.

 

This just came out, found it thanks to Chit Chat:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf

 

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf

Explain to me again how our current procedure is kosher?

Scenario 2:
Your second scenario is as follows. Immediately prior to the beginning of the final scheduled flight segment, the pilot-in-command (PIC) realizes that he will be unable to complete that segment without a 2-hour FDP extension. You ask two questions about this scenario.
Q1: Does the fitness-for-duty affirmation that the PIC signed prior to when he found out about the delay serve as concurrence to an extension?
Subsection 117.l9(a) allows an FDP to be extended up to 2 hours beyond the pertinent FDP limit in response to unforeseen operational circumstances that arise prior to takeoff. This extension is subject to a number of limitations, one of which is that the PIC and the
certificate holder must both concur with the extension.' A document that the PIC signed before he found out about the need for an extension would not be sufficient to concur with the extension because a person cannot concur with something that he or she does not know about. Instead, the PIC must affirmatively concur with the extension.
Q2: For this question, you ask us to assume that the length of the extension in the above scenario is 30 minutes instead of two hours. You ask us whether this changes our analysis in the previous question.
In a recently-issued interpretation the FAA stated that all FDP extensions taken pursuant to § 117.19 require PIC concurrence.4 However, the FAA noted that PIC concurrence
with extensions of30 minutes or less can be accomplished via a fitness-for-duty affirmation. 5
In this case, however, even though the extension would only be 30 minutes, the PIC's
fitness for duty affirmation would be insufficient to concur with the extension because
the affirmation took place before the PIC found out about the need for an extension. This
is because the PIC cannot concur with something that he does not know about. Thus,
even though the PIC's concurrence with extensions of30 minutes or less can be done via
a fitness-for-duty affirmation, an affirmation that takes place prior to when the PIC finds
out about the need for an extension would not be sufficient as a concurrence."

 

4. Fitness for duty with regard to FDP extensions
For your fourth question, you note that § 117.19 allows a certificate holder to extend an
FDP by up to two hours. You ask whether a flightcrew member must report to an FDP
sufficiently rested to accommodate a possible two-hour FDP extension.
Section 117.5(a) requires a flightcrew member to "report for any flight duty period rested
and prepared to perform his or her assigned duties." (emphasis added). As the
emphasized portion of the§ 117.5(a) regulatory text indicates, the fitness-for-duty
3 Clarification of Flight, Duty, and Rest Requirements, 78 FR 14166, 14169 (Mar. 5, 2013).
2
requirement applies to duties that are assigned, not duties that could be assigned.
Accordingly, until a certificate holder decides that an FDP extension is necessary, a
flightcrew member's fitness-for-duty determination is based on the assumption that the
FDP will not be extended.

 

Now FO have just as much power to not extend. you are signing the release too! Just say no I am unfit to continue. takes one lesson like above to learn to put your foot down.

 

United's new contract pays a pretty hefty premium for an FDP extension. I do not support this idea because pilots will see the money and extend when they are actually fatigued. This is a great discussion because a lot of times we are faced with having to cut off our own pay. Case in point, I did not accept an extension causing me to miss my greenslip the next day. I lost out on the pay, but I made the safe call by not endangering the crew or passengers, and I lived to fly another day. Its up to each pilot to assess their fitness for duty and if you feel like the company needs you, dont fret. They can ALWAYS find another crew to fly the airplane. Theyre very good at this.