Seniority progression at Delta vs SWA
08-17-2016 | 08:55 AM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
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[QUOTE=Catboatsailor;2182189]
What's the website for progression that's not the relative position?
I'm not sure if anyone is interested in seeing this, but I ran overall system seniority for a guy hired at Delta today vs a guy hired at Southwest 10 months ago. Both with approximately 33 years left of flying. I then compared that system seniority to what it took to hold each aircraft and seat in ATL compared to what it took to hold each seat in one of our junior bases (HOU) and senior bases (MCO) at Southwest.
I was surprised to see that narrowbody progression at Delta in ATL closely mirrors our career progression at one of our junior bases here at Southwest. It also appears that widebody flying will make up a small part of your career at Delta if you are unwilling to sit at the bottom of the list. Keep in mind this is only in ATL though. NYC would be totally different. And also keep in mind this assumes 1% growth per year at Southwest and obviously doesn't take into account another merger/acquisition. I also realize the Delta calculator doesn't take into account front end hiring and is based off hiring for retirements alone.
Hope this helps anyone else trying to figure out what to do!
There's a better website for calculating your potential career path at Delta but you have input your employee number. It was eye opening to see it's forecasts. It's based on current fleets, bases, position, and compares it to the current spread of where pilots are and their retirement schedule.
Here's a recap, if you have dreams of flying a wide body and are over the age of 35, your dream will be crushed here. Unless you have no need to hold a quality schedule, the vacation weeks you desire, and don't mind being junior reserve FO at age 43.
Example I'm 40 for DTW 777 FO, I can't hold it till 2023. DTW 777 CA, not until 2038!! And that's to be the plug. Meanwhile I can be the most junior DTW 717 CA by 2023 and bid in the top 25% by 2026.
So do I want to hold a crap schedule that may not get my days off with the 777? Or do I want to have strong bidding power, hold great vacation, as a Captain? To be honest a quality wide body Captain career doesn't exist here, unless you get hired in your 20's. Even then it will take a long time. Might as well just go to Emirates if you have no soul.
Granted I only spent one summer commuting to New York to fly international, but it sucked. My wife complained that I was constantly tired. Flying mainly domestic now, and it's nice not living in a fog.
IMHO Stick with SWA if it keeps you based near home.
I was surprised to see that narrowbody progression at Delta in ATL closely mirrors our career progression at one of our junior bases here at Southwest. It also appears that widebody flying will make up a small part of your career at Delta if you are unwilling to sit at the bottom of the list. Keep in mind this is only in ATL though. NYC would be totally different. And also keep in mind this assumes 1% growth per year at Southwest and obviously doesn't take into account another merger/acquisition. I also realize the Delta calculator doesn't take into account front end hiring and is based off hiring for retirements alone.
Hope this helps anyone else trying to figure out what to do!
There's a better website for calculating your potential career path at Delta but you have input your employee number. It was eye opening to see it's forecasts. It's based on current fleets, bases, position, and compares it to the current spread of where pilots are and their retirement schedule.
Here's a recap, if you have dreams of flying a wide body and are over the age of 35, your dream will be crushed here. Unless you have no need to hold a quality schedule, the vacation weeks you desire, and don't mind being junior reserve FO at age 43.
Example I'm 40 for DTW 777 FO, I can't hold it till 2023. DTW 777 CA, not until 2038!! And that's to be the plug. Meanwhile I can be the most junior DTW 717 CA by 2023 and bid in the top 25% by 2026.
So do I want to hold a crap schedule that may not get my days off with the 777? Or do I want to have strong bidding power, hold great vacation, as a Captain? To be honest a quality wide body Captain career doesn't exist here, unless you get hired in your 20's. Even then it will take a long time. Might as well just go to Emirates if you have no soul.
Granted I only spent one summer commuting to New York to fly international, but it sucked. My wife complained that I was constantly tired. Flying mainly domestic now, and it's nice not living in a fog.
IMHO Stick with SWA if it keeps you based near home.
08-17-2016 | 09:17 AM
#43
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From: A350 Both
08-17-2016 | 10:09 AM
#45
Otto
Joined: Jul 2013
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From: Turkish Pile Driver
I think you are correct. Although there were no ERs on the last AE, those jumping ship exceeded the back-fill leaving vacancies.
08-17-2016 | 11:00 AM
#46
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From: window seat
Not sure how mid 717 FO is 6 years in ATL. That doesn't seem right at all. Just a quick glance shows closer to 2 years. Maybe to hit exactly 50.0000000% cracked the 2010 mark since we didn't hire for 4 years after that, but check again its closer to 2 years. And all the other NB ATL positions are closer to 2 than to 6-8. You also compare DL's ATL to SW's non ATL.
ATL-ATL may not be the perfect comparison due to size, but how about just a system across the board comparison. Your methodology seems both off by quite a bit as well as very arbitrary. We have 1.5 year upgrades right now. How about SW?
ATL-ATL may not be the perfect comparison due to size, but how about just a system across the board comparison. Your methodology seems both off by quite a bit as well as very arbitrary. We have 1.5 year upgrades right now. How about SW?
08-17-2016 | 11:16 AM
#47
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2010
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From: UAL retired
While I agree, I feel that commuting to work with Delta will be far tougher than driving to work with Southwest regardless of the flying I do.
Don't get me wrong I'd love to fly 9-12 days a month on a 777 out of ATL with all weekends off, but after running the numbers I've realized that would make up a very small part of my career. If I'm going to primarily be on narrow bodies most of my career I assume just stay with Southwest and drive to work.
I flew MD-11's internationally before Southwest and while it was fun at first the novelty eventually wore off. I love flying 2-3 legs a day at Southwest on 3-day weekday trips, but to each their own.
Don't get me wrong I'd love to fly 9-12 days a month on a 777 out of ATL with all weekends off, but after running the numbers I've realized that would make up a very small part of my career. If I'm going to primarily be on narrow bodies most of my career I assume just stay with Southwest and drive to work.
I flew MD-11's internationally before Southwest and while it was fun at first the novelty eventually wore off. I love flying 2-3 legs a day at Southwest on 3-day weekday trips, but to each their own.
Airline history is replete with unforeseen shifts. Do you think someone hired at Pan Am in the '60s could ever imagine being out of a job 20 years later? What about TWA, Braniff, and Eastern. When I got hired at United we had 8000 pilots. My class made A320 Captain in less than 2 years and the list grew to 12,000 pilots, but then by 2005 the best I could hold was 76FO.
All that and you're basing a career decision on the long term hope MCO will remain a base!!
That should be one of the last considerations you have as a pilot.
Also, take a look at the history of airline cost structure and think long and hard about SWA. New airlines benefit greatly from young, cheap labor and new planes with low maintenance costs. SWA is a fabulously managed corporation, but no amount of intelligent management can change the fact that the labor force is aging and so is the fleet. In other words SWA is about to enter the world of "legacy" costs. Will SWA weather this aging process better than previous legacies? I have no idea, but picking and airline based on living in MCO and hoping you will fly out of there is ludicrous.
At this very moment in time there is tremendous movement everywhere due to retirements so from that aspect, I think it is safe to say no matter where you go you will move fast relative to people in this industry hired during a lull.
Finally, you can not know how you will feel in 20 years, but if human nature is any guide you may find that when you are 50 and have been flying a 737 for 25 years and your kids are grown and gone and you have 15 or even 20 years left you may find you were wishing you had a choice of more than just one type of plane and a choice of destinations more than just US cities and maybe it would be nice to do a year or two of Rome, Tokyo, London, and Hong Kong.
Don't choose which airline to work for based on a domicile; you will more than likely be disappointed in decades to come.
08-17-2016 | 11:32 AM
#48
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08-17-2016 | 12:27 PM
#49
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2014
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From: Captain
Past performance is no guarantee of future results...Delta is highly rated in both investor circles and satisfaction indexes.
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