SWA and AAI Final outcome
05-05-2015, 02:36 PM
#1
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Joined APC: Oct 2010
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Posts: 133
SWA and AAI Final outcome
The following post were made by others.
“I have to laugh though because the most senior FO in PHX is a former AT dude who is pretty activein the open time business. I'm certain he's making more than he did as a Capt at AT. He's told guys he's not going to upgrade to Capt at SWA because he's got it better right where he is. (Actually the senior FO's at almost every SWA base now are Former AT Capts). Good for them I say!”
“Ladies and Gentlemen, the Whahmaster.
He want's you believe he's a coiled spring, a crouching tiger, waiting and ready to right an ancient wrong.
When he's really just a festering sociopath who'll never forget that he once lost an argument.” As written by 1seat 1engine
Whacko,
Seriously dude? You are a small little boy -- without a FU%$ing doubt your lifetime careerearnings will be WAY more than had Air Tran stayed a separate airline or been bought out by anyone else. Quit your f'ing whining and move on and quit being such a sour grapes child throwing a temper tantrum over spilt milk. You still have a great job at a hugely profitable airline and make over 200K a year in total compensation. Cry me a f'ing river.
Thunder1 as written by Thunder1
“So, from your perspective it was SWAPA and SWA that conspired to screw you.”
“Exactly how did MY no vote screw YOU, Whack?
You're a sad, confused, delusional little man.” As written by 4th Level
I am truly disappointed. This is how SWA professional airline pilots talk to fellow aviators.
I have reached out and talked to several long-time friends who transitioned over to SWA.
They tell me that the SW pilot forum is exactly the same – venom spewed towards anyone with an opinion. Not a mature, professional difference of opinion but with insults. Is it my mistake to conclude you are Southwest line pilots? It is clear you do not agree with Whackmaster but you start by insulting with his screen name and then you can just read the rest of the insults. Where is your maturity?
One friend looked up the Seniority list of PHX based F/O’s yesterday. 1seat 1engine referenced it and my friend verified it yesterday and said the statement is not true. He said he checked the first 20 names and they are all WN not one transition pilot from AAI.
Here is what I learned from several sources who gave me information.
1. The Process agreement was signed in April of 2011. The day after the signing the entire Southwest pilot group was privy to the facts. ONLY A NEGOTIATED DEAL WOULD BE IMPLEMENTED by Southwest Airlines. If the AAI pilots would not agree to a negotiated deal with SWA / SWAPA and tried Mediation or Arbitration - AirTran would be operated separately until all the planes were transferred or sold and the AAI pilots would lose their careers.
2. AirTran had over approx. 900 Captains. All lost their CA status/seat (even if only for 3-4 months. They all had to go thru new hire training as F/O then some could go thru upgrade training again.
3. Several of my friends contacted me with info after verifying with other AAI pilots. This was the break down. The top guys lost about 15 % relative seniority. Captains who had been with AirTran approximately 12-14 years lost 30 % relative seniority. They went from bidding approximately 13% - 20 % as a Captain. They lost on average about 30 thousand dollars annually. They lost their Captain seat when many had been Captains for 10 - 14 years !
4. It is true, some guys can bid back and some have begun BUT, BUT they are now bidding at between 40 -45 % with a terrible QOL for the family compared to what they had. I think many here will agree that Family is more important than the money. Especially, when you were already around 180k – 210k as an AAI CA. So their hard decision is upgrade again, move the family or commute.
5. The money. Yes, the pay rates are higher at SWA. That is a fact. But, many SWA pilots seem to not be informed. They tend to argue about the pay rates the AAI guys were given after the deal. Here is a fact – Do these same SWA pilots know what the rates were in 2007 that the AAI turned down because they were trying to defend the profession. A profession which was riddled with BK contracts at all the majors. Hint for you – They were essentially the same they got in 2011/12.
6. Overall, the AAI first officers were given raises. They lost seniority but the pay raise for them was better and the seat did not change. The Senior Captains get their seat back and a pay raise. No big difference in what choice of line or vacations they can hold again. To go from 1% relative seniority to 15% is not a huge deal. The group that got the worst – the next group of Captains. They lost their seat. They lost 30 % in relative seniority. They took pay cuts for 1-2 years of about 30k on average. They must make a big QOL choice to be a Captain again. Commute, Move, Vacation week, line of flying a lot poorer, to be on reserve for a pay raise. Or deal with a new life in the right seat (and everything we are familiar with in that seat). Over Half the AAI Captains will never make Captain again because they lost so many years and Relative Seniority. Q. Why are pilots not allowed to just drop a trip into open time?
7. Of the over 900 AirTran Captains – approx. 500 will never be able to get their Captain seat again. The others lost so much seniority – they will retire before being able to bid CA again. Or as many arrogant SWA pilots have said “you can always quit and go somewhere else.
So the AAI pilots never had a chance. SWA pilot union had assurances from SWA that they would never implement a list that came from Mediation or Arbitration. It was shared with the SWA pilot group the day after the signing of the Process Agreement.
I understand the anger by so many. My friends tell me they are trying to move on but will never recover. They read the SWA pilot forum and that it is many times filled with insults about the former AAI pilot group. How is that even allowed? Talk about kick the horse who was knocked down in the mouth. The favorite term is FAT pilots. They hear it from everywhere they interact at work. Digs and insults. F/A’s after the trip. Gate agents when trying to commute or DH. How lucky they must feel about their huge raises. That seems to be the only thing that is important in the “Culture” at SWA. They preach “have fun” and “golden rule” but I doubt very seriously that if SWA pilots were treated how the AAI pilots were and are treated in another acquisition -
Well, the post above I think say it all. What an environment to work. I have given a few rides and heard the comments from just a few SWA guys over the last few years. I thought they were the exception. I read the post on this site. Many just like them. Just read the quotes I put at the top of this post - I pulled off this site. I hear the stories from those over there - what a group. No shame.
“I have to laugh though because the most senior FO in PHX is a former AT dude who is pretty activein the open time business. I'm certain he's making more than he did as a Capt at AT. He's told guys he's not going to upgrade to Capt at SWA because he's got it better right where he is. (Actually the senior FO's at almost every SWA base now are Former AT Capts). Good for them I say!”
“Ladies and Gentlemen, the Whahmaster.
He want's you believe he's a coiled spring, a crouching tiger, waiting and ready to right an ancient wrong.
When he's really just a festering sociopath who'll never forget that he once lost an argument.” As written by 1seat 1engine
Whacko,
Seriously dude? You are a small little boy -- without a FU%$ing doubt your lifetime careerearnings will be WAY more than had Air Tran stayed a separate airline or been bought out by anyone else. Quit your f'ing whining and move on and quit being such a sour grapes child throwing a temper tantrum over spilt milk. You still have a great job at a hugely profitable airline and make over 200K a year in total compensation. Cry me a f'ing river.
Thunder1 as written by Thunder1
“So, from your perspective it was SWAPA and SWA that conspired to screw you.”
“Exactly how did MY no vote screw YOU, Whack?
You're a sad, confused, delusional little man.” As written by 4th Level
I am truly disappointed. This is how SWA professional airline pilots talk to fellow aviators.
I have reached out and talked to several long-time friends who transitioned over to SWA.
They tell me that the SW pilot forum is exactly the same – venom spewed towards anyone with an opinion. Not a mature, professional difference of opinion but with insults. Is it my mistake to conclude you are Southwest line pilots? It is clear you do not agree with Whackmaster but you start by insulting with his screen name and then you can just read the rest of the insults. Where is your maturity?
One friend looked up the Seniority list of PHX based F/O’s yesterday. 1seat 1engine referenced it and my friend verified it yesterday and said the statement is not true. He said he checked the first 20 names and they are all WN not one transition pilot from AAI.
Here is what I learned from several sources who gave me information.
1. The Process agreement was signed in April of 2011. The day after the signing the entire Southwest pilot group was privy to the facts. ONLY A NEGOTIATED DEAL WOULD BE IMPLEMENTED by Southwest Airlines. If the AAI pilots would not agree to a negotiated deal with SWA / SWAPA and tried Mediation or Arbitration - AirTran would be operated separately until all the planes were transferred or sold and the AAI pilots would lose their careers.
2. AirTran had over approx. 900 Captains. All lost their CA status/seat (even if only for 3-4 months. They all had to go thru new hire training as F/O then some could go thru upgrade training again.
3. Several of my friends contacted me with info after verifying with other AAI pilots. This was the break down. The top guys lost about 15 % relative seniority. Captains who had been with AirTran approximately 12-14 years lost 30 % relative seniority. They went from bidding approximately 13% - 20 % as a Captain. They lost on average about 30 thousand dollars annually. They lost their Captain seat when many had been Captains for 10 - 14 years !
4. It is true, some guys can bid back and some have begun BUT, BUT they are now bidding at between 40 -45 % with a terrible QOL for the family compared to what they had. I think many here will agree that Family is more important than the money. Especially, when you were already around 180k – 210k as an AAI CA. So their hard decision is upgrade again, move the family or commute.
5. The money. Yes, the pay rates are higher at SWA. That is a fact. But, many SWA pilots seem to not be informed. They tend to argue about the pay rates the AAI guys were given after the deal. Here is a fact – Do these same SWA pilots know what the rates were in 2007 that the AAI turned down because they were trying to defend the profession. A profession which was riddled with BK contracts at all the majors. Hint for you – They were essentially the same they got in 2011/12.
6. Overall, the AAI first officers were given raises. They lost seniority but the pay raise for them was better and the seat did not change. The Senior Captains get their seat back and a pay raise. No big difference in what choice of line or vacations they can hold again. To go from 1% relative seniority to 15% is not a huge deal. The group that got the worst – the next group of Captains. They lost their seat. They lost 30 % in relative seniority. They took pay cuts for 1-2 years of about 30k on average. They must make a big QOL choice to be a Captain again. Commute, Move, Vacation week, line of flying a lot poorer, to be on reserve for a pay raise. Or deal with a new life in the right seat (and everything we are familiar with in that seat). Over Half the AAI Captains will never make Captain again because they lost so many years and Relative Seniority. Q. Why are pilots not allowed to just drop a trip into open time?
7. Of the over 900 AirTran Captains – approx. 500 will never be able to get their Captain seat again. The others lost so much seniority – they will retire before being able to bid CA again. Or as many arrogant SWA pilots have said “you can always quit and go somewhere else.
So the AAI pilots never had a chance. SWA pilot union had assurances from SWA that they would never implement a list that came from Mediation or Arbitration. It was shared with the SWA pilot group the day after the signing of the Process Agreement.
I understand the anger by so many. My friends tell me they are trying to move on but will never recover. They read the SWA pilot forum and that it is many times filled with insults about the former AAI pilot group. How is that even allowed? Talk about kick the horse who was knocked down in the mouth. The favorite term is FAT pilots. They hear it from everywhere they interact at work. Digs and insults. F/A’s after the trip. Gate agents when trying to commute or DH. How lucky they must feel about their huge raises. That seems to be the only thing that is important in the “Culture” at SWA. They preach “have fun” and “golden rule” but I doubt very seriously that if SWA pilots were treated how the AAI pilots were and are treated in another acquisition -
Well, the post above I think say it all. What an environment to work. I have given a few rides and heard the comments from just a few SWA guys over the last few years. I thought they were the exception. I read the post on this site. Many just like them. Just read the quotes I put at the top of this post - I pulled off this site. I hear the stories from those over there - what a group. No shame.
Last edited by Brakes Set; 05-05-2015 at 02:48 PM.
05-05-2015, 03:06 PM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: 737 Right
Posts: 1,385
Hey brakes, that previous thread was totally civil until the Master of Whah rolled in with the first use of &*^%$ in place of civility.
After that he got exactly what he was asking for.
And I stand by my assertion. You only have to look at the SLI to know that the most senior FO's in the system is dominated by former AT pilots.
After that he got exactly what he was asking for.
And I stand by my assertion. You only have to look at the SLI to know that the most senior FO's in the system is dominated by former AT pilots.
05-05-2015, 03:18 PM
#3
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: Left Seat
Posts: 133
Originally Posted by 1Seat 1Engine
Hey brakes, that previous thread was totally civil until the Master of Whah rolled in with the first use of &*^%$ in place of civility.
After that he got exactly what he was asking for.
And I stand by my assertion. You only have to look at the SLI to know that the most senior FO's in the system is dominated by former AT pilots.
After that he got exactly what he was asking for.
And I stand by my assertion. You only have to look at the SLI to know that the most senior FO's in the system is dominated by former AT pilots.
I don't doubt many bases have the former AAI guys at the top. I was only answering about the base you mentioned in your post about the #1 F/O in PHX not ever upgrading? I checked it and top 20 slots are WN - no former AAI pilot.
Curious what you think about the rest of my post.
05-05-2015, 05:19 PM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: 737 Right
Posts: 1,385
We evidently get our info from different sources. I know fmr AT dudes too.
If you think you're providing some kind of new and unique insight to the history, you're wrong.
You're cherry picking your facts, perhaps you should talk to a former Morris Pilot, or perhaps to a former AT pilot who voluntary left AT for SWA and then ended up jr to people he was senior to. Or perhaps to one of my close friends who interviewed at SWA twice, wasn't hired, then ended up at AT and is now f-ing ecstatic to have a SWA employee number.
Either way, I will shed nary a tear for WM. Maybe it's just him?
If you think you're providing some kind of new and unique insight to the history, you're wrong.
You're cherry picking your facts, perhaps you should talk to a former Morris Pilot, or perhaps to a former AT pilot who voluntary left AT for SWA and then ended up jr to people he was senior to. Or perhaps to one of my close friends who interviewed at SWA twice, wasn't hired, then ended up at AT and is now f-ing ecstatic to have a SWA employee number.
Either way, I will shed nary a tear for WM. Maybe it's just him?
05-05-2015, 05:41 PM
#5
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Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: CA
Posts: 1,207
Originally Posted by Brakes Set
The Process agreement was signed in April of 2011. The day after the signing the entire Southwest pilot group was privy to the facts. ONLY A NEGOTIATED DEAL WOULD BE IMPLEMENTED by Southwest Airlines. If the AAI pilots would not agree to a negotiated deal with SWA / SWAPA and tried Mediation or Arbitration - AirTran would be operated separately until all the planes were transferred or sold and the AAI pilots would lose their careers.
05-05-2015, 09:44 PM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 737 Right
Posts: 305
Brakes Set,
OUTSTANDING JOB cherry picking quotes. Will you please go do the same with Whacko's quotes over the YEARS that he has been denigrating, insulting and abusing original Southwest pilots that had NOTHING to do with the final outcome. Give me a F$%&ing break.
Cry me a river over Whackmaster and his continual whining about how he personally got screwed with this acquisition.
In addition, you are seriously misinformed about how SLI went down.
Cheers,
Thunder1
OUTSTANDING JOB cherry picking quotes. Will you please go do the same with Whacko's quotes over the YEARS that he has been denigrating, insulting and abusing original Southwest pilots that had NOTHING to do with the final outcome. Give me a F$%&ing break.
Cry me a river over Whackmaster and his continual whining about how he personally got screwed with this acquisition.
In addition, you are seriously misinformed about how SLI went down.
Cheers,
Thunder1
05-06-2015, 05:34 AM
#7
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: Left Seat
Posts: 133
Originally Posted by shoelu
I stopped after reading this absolutely and completely false, outright lie. You have shown you are a seriously uninformed outsider looking in. There is zero truth in this assertion and I know that to be factual. Feel free to publish some verifiable proof of this falsehood or admit you have no idea whether or not what you are stating is the truth, and admit you are relying completely on second hand info that you have no way of verifying.
Not correct sir.
1. Are you a Southwest Pilot? If so, did you participate or listen to the open call with your union NC the day after the Process agreement was signed?
2. If you did not - it is still available for you. It is over 1 hour of Southwest pilots (one after another) calling in with concern over all 4 parties agreeing to mediation or arbitration if a deal is not negotiated. For over an hour it is the Southwest Pilot union addressing each call with concern over a mediated or arbitrated list vs. a negotiated list.
3. If you still want to deny - send me your email. I have listened to this 2 times. I will send a picture of the link on your union web site or give you the instructions to listen to it yourself.
This is an absolute Fact.
I am completely floored - disgusted by what was done to the AirTran Pilot group.
Last edited by Brakes Set; 05-06-2015 at 06:01 AM.
05-06-2015, 05:53 AM
#8
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: Left Seat
Posts: 133
As to number 1. Listen to the recording at around the 50 minute mark. A question was asked how many pilots are participating in the call - at that point they answer 178 so far.
Not many compared to how many SWA pilots at that time 4-15-2011 5,000+ ?
If you were not one of them - I completely understand you being unaware.
Do not understand however you to automatically take the position you have about me telling lies or being uninformed.
Something else interesting in that call - Your negotiating chair/leader answering the question posed - not an exact quote but close - do the AirTran pilots get to vote or can a couple of senior AirTran folks block / prevent them from voting on a negotiated deal? The answer was - yes, the ENTIRE AIRTRAN PILOT GROUP WILL GET TO VOTE, everyone agreed to that in the process agreement. He expanded how everyone talked at great length about this very fact. It begins around 22:50 minutes into the call.
I completely understand why the AirTran pilots are upset with Southwest, Southwest pilot union, the southwest pilots who spew insults, ALPA MEC and ALPA. I also agree with 1Seat, there were a few "groups" of AAI pilots that had improvements from the deal compared to what might have been with AAI. But, the large majority of the Captains who had reached that pinnacle or goal we all seek had it taken away in a manner that was wrong. Followed by such poor treatment on the line that will probably last the rest of their careers. How would you describe it?
Not many compared to how many SWA pilots at that time 4-15-2011 5,000+ ?
If you were not one of them - I completely understand you being unaware.
Do not understand however you to automatically take the position you have about me telling lies or being uninformed.
Something else interesting in that call - Your negotiating chair/leader answering the question posed - not an exact quote but close - do the AirTran pilots get to vote or can a couple of senior AirTran folks block / prevent them from voting on a negotiated deal? The answer was - yes, the ENTIRE AIRTRAN PILOT GROUP WILL GET TO VOTE, everyone agreed to that in the process agreement. He expanded how everyone talked at great length about this very fact. It begins around 22:50 minutes into the call.
I completely understand why the AirTran pilots are upset with Southwest, Southwest pilot union, the southwest pilots who spew insults, ALPA MEC and ALPA. I also agree with 1Seat, there were a few "groups" of AAI pilots that had improvements from the deal compared to what might have been with AAI. But, the large majority of the Captains who had reached that pinnacle or goal we all seek had it taken away in a manner that was wrong. Followed by such poor treatment on the line that will probably last the rest of their careers. How would you describe it?
Last edited by Brakes Set; 05-06-2015 at 06:37 AM.
05-06-2015, 08:13 AM
#9
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Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 666
Originally Posted by Brakes Set
How would you describe it?
There was a whole 'lotta butt-hurt on both sides of this deal. It's over, though. Time to move on. There are other adversaries currently facing SWAPA (and we're ALL SWAPA PILOTS now, right?), and more in the future. Let's focus on them.
05-06-2015, 05:11 PM
#10
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Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: CA
Posts: 1,207
Originally Posted by Brakes Set
Not correct sir.
1. Are you a Southwest Pilot? If so, did you participate or listen to the open call with your union NC the day after the Process agreement was signed?
1. Are you a Southwest Pilot? If so, did you participate or listen to the open call with your union NC the day after the Process agreement was signed?
"ONLY A NEGOTIATED DEAL WOULD BE IMPLEMENTED by Southwest Airlines"
Was never spoken. It wasn't said because the process agreement didn't allow it. Directly from the P.A. signed by all parties stated unequivocally:
"If the Merger Committees (subject to applicable governance provisions of SWAPA and ALPA, respectively) reach a complete agreement regarding the integration of their respective seniority lists (whether during negotiations, mediation, or arbitration), it shall be accepted by Southwest."
If you are not a SWAPA member, how did you illegally obtain the materials that you elude to?
If you were a SWAPA member, you would know that the info you speak of is privileged to SWAPA members only. So exactly where did you receive the materials which you are completely misrepresenting?
TERMS OF USE
"You may not obtain or attempt to obtain any materials or information through any means not intentionally made available or provided for through the Southwest Airlines Pilots' Association."
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