Good afternoon guys. I started surfing around here a year or so ago to see what's happening in you guys world. I have followed the forums and it's kinda funny watching all the same personalities push their agenda.

Here are some of my thoughts and a few questions. First off my stance after reading all this would be with the guys that voted no to the first deal and don't like the happenings today.

In the first deal TA15, it was voted down 65% to 35%. After reading all the threads for a while it seems that those who want the quick and dirty deal are the ones who are about to retire. They wanna get theirs and bail. It later occurred to me with all the pilots retiring soon (probably about 30% I'm guessing) that they are all you're yes voters. Of course you guys already know this.

So one of my questions is wouldn't pushing a full retro hard bring more of those guys on board that way they would get theirs on down the road even if they are retired?

Anyhow it seems that the 65% are gonna be there for a while and are set on not only getting a raise, but also maintaining some sort of QOL. It's sorta sad that the few are selling out the many but that's life I suppose. Based on what I read I wouldn't think the 65% would be swayed that much if they touch any of their QOL issues because this is where they have to live for a while and who wants to give up their life for a few dollars unless your run is almost up and you need to cash out.

I would think that management is wanting to go after whatever they can very hard this go around because the next go around the 35% is going to shrink. They will be retiring and with the pilot group getting younger the QOL will be a huge issue so management needs to sieze what they can now as far as QOL concessions.

It would also seem that after watching the SWA deal go down if another substandard TA comes down the pipe that all those yes voters would just vote no. Knowing it's gonna fail anyway because they aren't gonna sway the 65% so it's like 95% to 5% giving the negotiators some real power and a deal would come quick. Imagine that TA15 65% to 35% then TA16 95% to 5%. Management would panic. But if it gets closer they will continue to kick the can.


At the end of the day the pilots are in the drivers seat in these negotiations although from my perspective it sure doesn't look like they know that as it seems that you're own negotiators are selling the pilots up the river. What do they get out of it at the end of the day? Does the company reward them with some VP position down the road. Like the first guy Donatelli I think it was that sold you guys down the river. How did it work out for him. My guess is now everybody hates his guts and who would wanna fly with him. Is he about to be appointed some position at Delta? So what would his motivation be for going to the dark side? That is the part I don't understand why your own negotiators sell you out? Please somebody explain that to me.

Here is another question. How much would it cost to refund the pension to all those that lost it? 1 billion? 2 billion? Again how much did Delta make last year? How much are they gonna make this year?

Seems as though a lot of guys took it on the nose hard to save the place and now management doesn't even wanna throw you a bone. I really kinda don't understand how more of you guys aren't ****ed. Don't get me wrong I don't think your getting your pension back but they should be beating them over the head with that. Maybe they are I dunno

Another thing they should do since they took all those guys pensions is make it profit sharing for life for those guys. That way they have something to show for it.

I am rooting for you guys but I shake my head at the fact management seems to be so stupid.

Anyway just some thoughts from the outside. I am sure nothing new to you guys.

 

WOW! That says it all!

 

He brings up a few good points but he is greatly oversimplifying the whole issue. Plenty of guys with a few years left voted No. Plenty of younger guys voted yes. I was a No vote last time but would really like to get to a deal can vote yes on.

Finally you can not say "Guys are willing to throw everyone else under the bus" because of how they vote. This is very divisive and probably just how management hopes to splinter the Pilot group and get a 51% yes vote.

A guy with a few years left has every much as right to vote yes as a guy with 30 left has to vote no. If the senior guy voting yes is hosing the young guy then how is the younger guy voting No not hosing the older guy with only a few years left?

I don't really begrudge anyone for exercising their voting rights by taking their own best interests into account. Some may vote on purely ideological grounds, others strictly on self interest but my feeling is most will vote based on varying combinations of self interests and what they think is best for the Pilot group as a whole.

Scoop

 

So much wrong with your post it's hard to even respond. First I suspect the 65% no vote was pretty evenly spread amongst the seniority list.
No pilots involved from the last TA are working any management positions. I know one who was involved in the last TA who has been offered management positions for the last 15 years and turned them all down.
The pension unlike UAL and USAIR was substantially retained not lost. It was converted into multiple pots of money rolled over into retirement accounts plus a PBGC payment. The average older pilot should see 75 to 80% of his pension. I am at about 80% and made a couple of bonehead investment moves. Last year the company contributed over 18% of each pilots earnings to their retirement plan. Young pilots should exceed the old plan with that level of contribution. The current plan is in each pilots own name. I would not take the old plan back if offered.
Throwing a bone is a relative term. Managements current table position would have us the highest compensated pilots in the US in the passenger industry. If you count PS we would exceed UPS and Fedex. It appears they have drawn a line about 10% above are nearest competitor with PS included and are not going above that overall number.
Most pilots seem to feel we are in the ballpark pay wise but object to having to get a sick note for sick calls after using 100 hours of sick leave in the previous 12 months and a provision to include all management compensation as a cost when calculating PS instead of excluding equity based money.
The current company proposal would would raise pilot pay in hard money 21.1% on 1 JAN 17. There would be another 1% soft money for a total of about a 22% increase. Profit sharing would take somewhere around a 2 to 2.5% hit assuming management doubled their equity compensation however we would recover about that amount with a shift in the pilot verses non cons distribution of the total pool. By 1 Jan 18 pilots would see a 25% increase in pay.
All of the above are using management table position. I expect the end product to be better.

 

Shhh....you are injecting facts into the discussion. That is strictly verboten here.

 

I'm happy that sailing fun will have about 80 percent of his pension. For me, it's about 40 percent. That's a part of the problem, there is a huge disparity in the amount of retirement that a pilot will receive depending on whether your pension was terminated, frozen, based only on DC, and at what point in your career that happened.
I'm a deadzoner, being forced to work after age 60, to try and make up for my terminated pension. I am NOT going to sell out the younger pilots OR let management and ALPA slide on this negotiation. It is now a matter of principle that both ALPA and Delta address the amount of concessions I have made over my career. If ALPA does not, I will vote to kick them off of the property and get a new CBA. If Delta does not, then I will go on strike. We are at a crossroads. ALPA is the first in the firing line. Are they going to represent the will of the pilots or not? Either they change their tune and give us all something that we are willing to strike for, or they're history. Once/if they do that, or a new CBA is elected, Delta will be next in the firing line. I'm willing to wait even though my time is short.
We are all in this together. I will not sell out QOL, and further decimate the contract, for pay raises. I expect that the junior pilots will not sell me out by not addressing my retirement problem.

 

Agreed.... and as far as management wanting to go hard after an agreement now because the 35% is only going to shrink, I think is a misread. I suspect management would be happy to operate under this current PWA from now until forever... and if anyone thinks we will be released to strike under current conditions is myopic.

 

exactly. THIS is what being part of a u-n-i-o-n is all about.

 

I am a dead zoner also. No idea how you ended up at 40%. I would get the best professional help you can find. As far as retirement and junior pilots the issue was so far down the surveys that it has as you know received almost no consideration from the union. It was to paraphrase one rep a non event on the surveys. It was at the top of mine but I guess I was in a huge minority.

 

I want to clarify that I am not saying what I stated was fact. Just the way I viewed what was going on from the outside. I do not work for Delta and have no dog in this fight.

But I am rooting for you guys