PBS or line bidding?
10-10-2016 | 01:35 PM
#15
Runs with scissors
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 7,847
Likes: 0
From: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Hey Delta Pilots,
SWA pilot here. As many of you likely know, the pilots of SWA are in the middle of voting on our new TA right now. One of the issues that is repeatedly raised as an enormous advantage at SWA is that we do not use PBS for bidding. Many of our pilots bemoan PBS as the worst possible thing that can happen at an airline: worse than giving up scope and maybe even worse than furlough. PBS is the devil itself. The big objection is that PBS eliminates any opportunity to get extra pay and time off during monthly overlap and during vacation months.
Our new TA does not include PBS. However, it does include substandard retirement, pay, lifetime earnings, and hotel language compared to the other "Big 4" airlines. Many of those advocating for a YES vote on our new TA do so on the basis that "at least it doesn't have PBS". For many SWA pilots, PBS is an absolute deal-breaker.
Is this a well-placed fear? I have only used line bidding in my airline career so I have no comparison. I have heard good and bad about PBS. Most of the Delta pilots I've talked to have liked PBS. I don't know if they are a representative sample.
I've heard Delta has a highly tweaked version of PBS. Not all PBS systems are the same or equal. Can you Delta pilots please share your experience with PBS and what you think of it? If you have experienced line bidding before, please let me know how you think it compares to line bidding.
It seems many of our pilots would prefer substandard big-ticket items (lifetime career and retirement earnings, hotel language, medical insurance provisions, many more hours blocked/yr, etc) in our new SWA TA in order to avoid being forced to accept PBS. Is avoiding PBS really worth all of that?
Thanks!
SWA pilot here. As many of you likely know, the pilots of SWA are in the middle of voting on our new TA right now. One of the issues that is repeatedly raised as an enormous advantage at SWA is that we do not use PBS for bidding. Many of our pilots bemoan PBS as the worst possible thing that can happen at an airline: worse than giving up scope and maybe even worse than furlough. PBS is the devil itself. The big objection is that PBS eliminates any opportunity to get extra pay and time off during monthly overlap and during vacation months.
Our new TA does not include PBS. However, it does include substandard retirement, pay, lifetime earnings, and hotel language compared to the other "Big 4" airlines. Many of those advocating for a YES vote on our new TA do so on the basis that "at least it doesn't have PBS". For many SWA pilots, PBS is an absolute deal-breaker.
Is this a well-placed fear? I have only used line bidding in my airline career so I have no comparison. I have heard good and bad about PBS. Most of the Delta pilots I've talked to have liked PBS. I don't know if they are a representative sample.
I've heard Delta has a highly tweaked version of PBS. Not all PBS systems are the same or equal. Can you Delta pilots please share your experience with PBS and what you think of it? If you have experienced line bidding before, please let me know how you think it compares to line bidding.
It seems many of our pilots would prefer substandard big-ticket items (lifetime career and retirement earnings, hotel language, medical insurance provisions, many more hours blocked/yr, etc) in our new SWA TA in order to avoid being forced to accept PBS. Is avoiding PBS really worth all of that?
Thanks!
As with all parts of any contract, the devil is in the details. Delta wanted PBS and got PBS during our bankruptcy negotiations, it was a pilot concession no doubt, because it results in fewer pilots required to fly the schedule. But not all PBS systems are created equal, in fact, I would guess none of them are the same, because each has limits set by the carrier's pilot's working agreement. At Delta we allowed the average line value to creep up with every next contract. Higher line values = fewer pilots required to fly the schedule. At Delta we have gone from averaging about 75 hours per month under Line of Time bidding, to 89 hour lines under PBS. That's an increase of nearly 20% more flying, per pilot! On a 10,000 pilot list, that's 2000 fewer pilots required to fly the schedule!
THAT's exactly why the company wanted it.
As others have pointed out, any PBS could be 'fixed' to have trips touching vacation and training dropped after bid awards, instead of not allowing a line built with a conflict, and we could have a hard 75 hour cap instead of 91 hour lines being built, but that's why the company wanted it in the first place; they wanted fewer pilots to pay, insure, have medical plans, vacations, training, sick leave, it all adds up and the fewer pilots on the list, the fewer 'extra' expenses for the company.
Now, as far as 'how do I like it'? I like being able to pick the days I want to fly, and the trips I want to fly, but of course the more senior you are, the better that works for you. If you are the bottom bidder in your category, you'll be flying all the crap, every weekend and holiday, because crap rolls downhill. If you are number 1 in your base, you'll get what ever YOU want, not what the company builds for you to bid. Under line of time bidding, you might not be able to find a single line that has all the days off you want, AND all the trips you want, and no matter how senior you are, the bad trips might be spread around to all the lines, so you cannot avoid them all, when someone else is building your lines.
I've always been in the middle, seniority wise in category. I can choose good trips on bad days, or good days off (holidays) and have to fly crap trips to get them off, but PBS does afford you the flexibility to choose your poison, where under line of time bidding, someone in crew scheduling is building the lines and then you have to try to find one you like, and hope you can hold it.
So again, the devil is in the rules you put on your PBS, how high the caps are for each line, how much left over open time will there be, who gets what, why, etc. and you need to monitor the bid runs to be sure the computer isn't goofing it up.
Last edited by Timbo; 10-10-2016 at 01:50 PM.
10-10-2016 | 01:35 PM
#16
Thread Starter
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Thanks for all of the replies. That is helpful.
It sounds like, for the most part, you guys are substantiating what I've heard from the Delta guys I've talked to already. It seems like most of them prefer PBS to LOT bidding.
I'd definitely like to hear more, both positive and negative, about Delta guys' experience with PBS.
It sounds like, for the most part, you guys are substantiating what I've heard from the Delta guys I've talked to already. It seems like most of them prefer PBS to LOT bidding.
I'd definitely like to hear more, both positive and negative, about Delta guys' experience with PBS.
10-10-2016 | 02:16 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 20,897
Likes: 217
As with all parts of any contract, the devil is in the details. Delta wanted PBS and got PBS during our bankruptcy negotiations, it was a pilot concession no doubt, because it results in fewer pilots required to fly the schedule. But not all PBS systems are created equal, in fact, I would guess none of them are the same, because each has limits set by the carrier's pilot's working agreement. At Delta we allowed the average line value to creep up with every next contract. Higher line values = fewer pilots required to fly the schedule. At Delta we have gone from averaging about 75 hours per month under Line of Time bidding, to 89 hour lines under PBS. That's an increase of nearly 20% more flying, per pilot! On a 10,000 pilot list, that's 2000 fewer pilots required to fly the schedule!
THAT's exactly why the company wanted it.
As others have pointed out, any PBS could be 'fixed' to have trips touching vacation and training dropped after bid awards, instead of not allowing a line built with a conflict, and we could have a hard 75 hour cap instead of 91 hour lines being built, but that's why the company wanted it in the first place; they wanted fewer pilots to pay, insure, have medical plans, vacations, training, sick leave, it all adds up and the fewer pilots on the list, the fewer 'extra' expenses for the company.
Now, as far as 'how do I like it'? I like being able to pick the days I want to fly, and the trips I want to fly, but of course the more senior you are, the better that works for you. If you are the bottom bidder in your category, you'll be flying all the crap, every weekend and holiday, because crap rolls downhill. If you are number 1 in your base, you'll get what ever YOU want, not what the company builds for you to bid. Under line of time bidding, you might not be able to find a single line that has all the days off you want, AND all the trips you want, and no matter how senior you are, the bad trips might be spread around to all the lines, so you cannot avoid them all, when someone else is building your lines.
I've always been in the middle, seniority wise in category. I can choose good trips on bad days, or good days off (holidays) and have to fly crap trips to get them off, but PBS does afford you the flexibility to choose your poison, where under line of time bidding, someone in crew scheduling is building the lines and then you have to try to find one you like, and hope you can hold it.
So again, the devil is in the rules you put on your PBS, how high the caps are for each line, how much left over open time will there be, who gets what, why, etc. and you need to monitor the bid runs to be sure the computer isn't goofing it up.
THAT's exactly why the company wanted it.
As others have pointed out, any PBS could be 'fixed' to have trips touching vacation and training dropped after bid awards, instead of not allowing a line built with a conflict, and we could have a hard 75 hour cap instead of 91 hour lines being built, but that's why the company wanted it in the first place; they wanted fewer pilots to pay, insure, have medical plans, vacations, training, sick leave, it all adds up and the fewer pilots on the list, the fewer 'extra' expenses for the company.
Now, as far as 'how do I like it'? I like being able to pick the days I want to fly, and the trips I want to fly, but of course the more senior you are, the better that works for you. If you are the bottom bidder in your category, you'll be flying all the crap, every weekend and holiday, because crap rolls downhill. If you are number 1 in your base, you'll get what ever YOU want, not what the company builds for you to bid. Under line of time bidding, you might not be able to find a single line that has all the days off you want, AND all the trips you want, and no matter how senior you are, the bad trips might be spread around to all the lines, so you cannot avoid them all, when someone else is building your lines.
I've always been in the middle, seniority wise in category. I can choose good trips on bad days, or good days off (holidays) and have to fly crap trips to get them off, but PBS does afford you the flexibility to choose your poison, where under line of time bidding, someone in crew scheduling is building the lines and then you have to try to find one you like, and hope you can hold it.
So again, the devil is in the rules you put on your PBS, how high the caps are for each line, how much left over open time will there be, who gets what, why, etc. and you need to monitor the bid runs to be sure the computer isn't goofing it up.
10-10-2016 | 02:19 PM
#19
Runs with scissors
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 7,847
Likes: 0
From: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Oh, I just remembered the copilot's most favorite feature of the Delta PBS, as a F/O, you can input "Avoid Employee Number XXXXXX" in your bid choice, so you don't have to spend 4 days or more flying with a tool.
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