PBS or line bidding?
10-09-2016, 07:52 PM
#1
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Posts: 33
PBS or line bidding?
Hey Delta Pilots,
SWA pilot here. As many of you likely know, the pilots of SWA are in the middle of voting on our new TA right now. One of the issues that is repeatedly raised as an enormous advantage at SWA is that we do not use PBS for bidding. Many of our pilots bemoan PBS as the worst possible thing that can happen at an airline: worse than giving up scope and maybe even worse than furlough. PBS is the devil itself. The big objection is that PBS eliminates any opportunity to get extra pay and time off during monthly overlap and during vacation months.
Our new TA does not include PBS. However, it does include substandard retirement, pay, lifetime earnings, and hotel language compared to the other "Big 4" airlines. Many of those advocating for a YES vote on our new TA do so on the basis that "at least it doesn't have PBS". For many SWA pilots, PBS is an absolute deal-breaker.
Is this a well-placed fear? I have only used line bidding in my airline career so I have no comparison. I have heard good and bad about PBS. Most of the Delta pilots I've talked to have liked PBS. I don't know if they are a representative sample.
I've heard Delta has a highly tweaked version of PBS. Not all PBS systems are the same or equal. Can you Delta pilots please share your experience with PBS and what you think of it? If you have experienced line bidding before, please let me know how you think it compares to line bidding.
It seems many of our pilots would prefer substandard big-ticket items (lifetime career and retirement earnings, hotel language, medical insurance provisions, many more hours blocked/yr, etc) in our new SWA TA in order to avoid being forced to accept PBS. Is avoiding PBS really worth all of that?
Thanks!
SWA pilot here. As many of you likely know, the pilots of SWA are in the middle of voting on our new TA right now. One of the issues that is repeatedly raised as an enormous advantage at SWA is that we do not use PBS for bidding. Many of our pilots bemoan PBS as the worst possible thing that can happen at an airline: worse than giving up scope and maybe even worse than furlough. PBS is the devil itself. The big objection is that PBS eliminates any opportunity to get extra pay and time off during monthly overlap and during vacation months.
Our new TA does not include PBS. However, it does include substandard retirement, pay, lifetime earnings, and hotel language compared to the other "Big 4" airlines. Many of those advocating for a YES vote on our new TA do so on the basis that "at least it doesn't have PBS". For many SWA pilots, PBS is an absolute deal-breaker.
Is this a well-placed fear? I have only used line bidding in my airline career so I have no comparison. I have heard good and bad about PBS. Most of the Delta pilots I've talked to have liked PBS. I don't know if they are a representative sample.
I've heard Delta has a highly tweaked version of PBS. Not all PBS systems are the same or equal. Can you Delta pilots please share your experience with PBS and what you think of it? If you have experienced line bidding before, please let me know how you think it compares to line bidding.
It seems many of our pilots would prefer substandard big-ticket items (lifetime career and retirement earnings, hotel language, medical insurance provisions, many more hours blocked/yr, etc) in our new SWA TA in order to avoid being forced to accept PBS. Is avoiding PBS really worth all of that?
Thanks!
10-09-2016, 08:07 PM
#2
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,868
PBS is neither bad or good. It is a basically a computer program that converts your contract into a schedule.
To be sure - PBS does enable a whole lot of efficiency that would be impractical with Line Of Time Bidding (LOT). Take trips touching vacation dropping - that is standard with LOT and pretty much unheard of with PBS but it can just as easily be accomplished with PBS.
So even though PBS itself does not itself cause much of the efficiency - it enables it and they always seem to go together. I guess that is why companies want PBS because it seems to come as a package deal with a whole new set of work rules enabled by PBS.
PROs of PBS ( as normally implemented):
*More Pilots will be holding a line every month.
*Much more flexibility in building your monthly schedule.
*Enables vacation slides and other unique ways to improve schedules.
CONs of PBS:
*Much less open time due to the efficiency that comes with PBS.
*Enables the elimination of most pre-month conflicts.
*It can instantly create a situation where if you were manned adequately before the implementation you are now carrying excess Pilots. To me this is the biggest negative.
With all of that said I much prefer monthly bidding with PBS. I have been well below 50% in category, about 50% in category, and in the the top 5% in category and in each instance I have been able to do much better with PBS and now that we have it I would not want to switch back to LOT bidding. I would love to get trips touching back but that is more of a PWA issue not really a PBS one.
The above is just one opinion and I am sure some guys would prefer to switch back to LOT bidding.
Scoop
To be sure - PBS does enable a whole lot of efficiency that would be impractical with Line Of Time Bidding (LOT). Take trips touching vacation dropping - that is standard with LOT and pretty much unheard of with PBS but it can just as easily be accomplished with PBS.
So even though PBS itself does not itself cause much of the efficiency - it enables it and they always seem to go together. I guess that is why companies want PBS because it seems to come as a package deal with a whole new set of work rules enabled by PBS.
PROs of PBS ( as normally implemented):
*More Pilots will be holding a line every month.
*Much more flexibility in building your monthly schedule.
*Enables vacation slides and other unique ways to improve schedules.
CONs of PBS:
*Much less open time due to the efficiency that comes with PBS.
*Enables the elimination of most pre-month conflicts.
*It can instantly create a situation where if you were manned adequately before the implementation you are now carrying excess Pilots. To me this is the biggest negative.
With all of that said I much prefer monthly bidding with PBS. I have been well below 50% in category, about 50% in category, and in the the top 5% in category and in each instance I have been able to do much better with PBS and now that we have it I would not want to switch back to LOT bidding. I would love to get trips touching back but that is more of a PWA issue not really a PBS one.
The above is just one opinion and I am sure some guys would prefer to switch back to LOT bidding.
Scoop
Last edited by Scoop; 10-10-2016 at 06:15 AM.
10-10-2016, 04:28 AM
#4
seeing the large hubs...
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: 73N A
Posts: 3,706
I am a 8 year FO at Delta - I love PBS, much more than Line of Time (LOT) bidding. I wasn't at Delta when they had it, but used LOT at a regional a while ago. The problem with LOT bidding is that you get the good with the bad. For example, a line might have weekends off, but early shows during the week. Or layovers cities you don't like.
When using PBS, you can bid your schedule to be much more of what you want, in the initial award. You want weekends off, trips that don't start before 10am, and you want to get home by 1pm on the 3rd Friday so you can go to your son's All Stars football game? Plug it all in and PBS will try to award it all.
SWA pilots seem to like the ability to add and drop trips, to massage their schedule to get what they want. Well - with PBS, you do that all before the bids come out. You can ask for high time turns, or three days with a DH on the back off it - etc. Our PBS will award you what your seniority can hold. I rarely change my schedule unless I made a mistake and forgot to ask for something off. All that churn in open time is eliminated because everyone is getting what they want - the first time. You don't have to take the good with the bad, you just take what you want. Now if you're junior, you're less likely to get the good stuff, but you'd be surprised what can filter down. Every pilot has different needs for their schedule, one guy's trash is another's treasure.
As Scoop said, PBS is just a tool to implement your contract. At the majors, PBS came about around the same time of the bankruptcy, so our contract was being gutted at the same time. For example, dropping trips that conflict with vacation is a nice feature of your contract at SWA. That could easily be implemented in PBS - we in fact that have for training drops. When you are moving to a new airplane, after training you bid for your schedule. The company designates anywhere from 4-10 days for OE, depending on OE requirements. PBS sees that - but still awards you trips on those days for pay, depending on your requirements, then drops them back into the open time pot. You get still get paid what those trips would pay, but they aren't on your schedule. Similar to vacation drops.
I think the reason that Delta's implementation of PBS works so well is that it (a) honors seniority (I've heard some regional PBS implementations will take a trip from you to give it to a junior guy to complete his schedule and give you a worse trip). Also, the DALPA scheduling group was heavily involved in planning PBS and closely monitors the solutions that PBS puts out, every month. If the scheduling group feels the schedules aren't good enough, it requires the company to tweak some parameters and run it again.
When using PBS, you can bid your schedule to be much more of what you want, in the initial award. You want weekends off, trips that don't start before 10am, and you want to get home by 1pm on the 3rd Friday so you can go to your son's All Stars football game? Plug it all in and PBS will try to award it all.
SWA pilots seem to like the ability to add and drop trips, to massage their schedule to get what they want. Well - with PBS, you do that all before the bids come out. You can ask for high time turns, or three days with a DH on the back off it - etc. Our PBS will award you what your seniority can hold. I rarely change my schedule unless I made a mistake and forgot to ask for something off. All that churn in open time is eliminated because everyone is getting what they want - the first time. You don't have to take the good with the bad, you just take what you want. Now if you're junior, you're less likely to get the good stuff, but you'd be surprised what can filter down. Every pilot has different needs for their schedule, one guy's trash is another's treasure.
As Scoop said, PBS is just a tool to implement your contract. At the majors, PBS came about around the same time of the bankruptcy, so our contract was being gutted at the same time. For example, dropping trips that conflict with vacation is a nice feature of your contract at SWA. That could easily be implemented in PBS - we in fact that have for training drops. When you are moving to a new airplane, after training you bid for your schedule. The company designates anywhere from 4-10 days for OE, depending on OE requirements. PBS sees that - but still awards you trips on those days for pay, depending on your requirements, then drops them back into the open time pot. You get still get paid what those trips would pay, but they aren't on your schedule. Similar to vacation drops.
I think the reason that Delta's implementation of PBS works so well is that it (a) honors seniority (I've heard some regional PBS implementations will take a trip from you to give it to a junior guy to complete his schedule and give you a worse trip). Also, the DALPA scheduling group was heavily involved in planning PBS and closely monitors the solutions that PBS puts out, every month. If the scheduling group feels the schedules aren't good enough, it requires the company to tweak some parameters and run it again.
10-10-2016, 05:26 AM
#6
New Hire
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Posts: 6
PBS or line bidding?
Originally Posted by Tanker1497
No trips touching with PBS
You could have trip touching if Vacation/training/etc wasn't pre-awarded...but I'm guessing that's one of the big efficiencies a company is looking for with PBS.
10-10-2016, 05:55 AM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
Originally Posted by Tanker1497
No trips touching with PBS
Denny
10-10-2016, 06:58 AM
#9
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 39
The main advantage to PBS is user flexibility. It allows for more lines to be created that match the individual needs of each pilot.
As far as trip touch conflicts and vacation, that isn't a fault of PBS, that is a function of your CBA/PWA language that governs the system. Many blame PBS but in reality is bad contract language regarding the credit for Vacation/training/etc and language of how the trips are run.
I've been on SWA jumpseats where they have bemoaned PBS, and I always raised an eyebrow since there are far more productive things (Section 1) that need to be paid attention to in a contract.
As far as trip touch conflicts and vacation, that isn't a fault of PBS, that is a function of your CBA/PWA language that governs the system. Many blame PBS but in reality is bad contract language regarding the credit for Vacation/training/etc and language of how the trips are run.
I've been on SWA jumpseats where they have bemoaned PBS, and I always raised an eyebrow since there are far more productive things (Section 1) that need to be paid attention to in a contract.
10-10-2016, 07:11 AM
#10
Bus driver
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 830
Originally Posted by Broncoav8r
The main advantage to PBS is user flexibility. It allows for more lines to be created that match the individual needs of each pilot.
As far as trip touch conflicts and vacation, that isn't a fault of PBS, that is a function of your CBA/PWA language that governs the system. Many blame PBS but in reality is bad contract language regarding the credit for Vacation/training/etc and language of how the trips are run.
I've been on SWA jumpseats where they have bemoaned PBS, and I always raised an eyebrow since there are far more productive things (Section 1) that need to be paid attention to in a contract.
As far as trip touch conflicts and vacation, that isn't a fault of PBS, that is a function of your CBA/PWA language that governs the system. Many blame PBS but in reality is bad contract language regarding the credit for Vacation/training/etc and language of how the trips are run.
I've been on SWA jumpseats where they have bemoaned PBS, and I always raised an eyebrow since there are far more productive things (Section 1) that need to be paid attention to in a contract.
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