This is not about the merger. My earlier NWA comment wrongly alluded to that and I take it back. This is about the approach going forward. IMO the current MEC tends to be overly militant. The old guard tended to go overboard with proactive engagement. JM seems to hit in between both extremes perfectly. Firm but reasonable using scientific methods. As do the 44 Capt Reps.

BB hasn't done anything to effect me negatively. From what I've heard he's a top notch pilot advocate and you wouldn't want anybody else as your rep if you have to do a carpet dance. He has my full support now he's elected. It's just my opinion that 44 needs to go with more reasonable FO reps don't have to be in lockstep with the Capt reps but at least on the same page.

Wait. You think the NWA bravado doesn't work and say the militant approach doesn't work but then back pedal and say you support BB? In the same post...

Of course I support him now he's the MEC Chair. How he got the votes is an internal C44 issue that hopefully 44 get cleaned up but now that he's there I hope he is successful. This really is about 44 being properly represented. The FO reps don't make the cut IMO. C44 peeps ask around. Plenty of folks who voted no to TA1 and oppose the old guard want the FO reps gone ASAP

:confused::confused: Well, that's a schizophrenic post if I've ever seen one.

What is the track record for the Moakies who begged and cried and threatened for TA 1? Hermon and Nestor and Hanson?

You couldn't be more wrong.
There's no way we are going back to the Moakist regime.
Curly and his buddies will just have to live with Bartels.

The old gang has always been able to stack ATL LEC meetings.
A council-wide vote is a whole different ball game.
Johnson and Kern will win in a landslide.

Exactly. Personally, I likely won't be voting for Johnson if he runs for reelection, but this is a farce recall attempt. I hope it fails by a landslide.

Kind of ironic that the guy who presented the recall motion is one of the more impressionable and bumbling individuals I know. He tried to sell the failed TA hard. Just wanting to be accepted by the old guard types...

What percentage of C44 pilots do you think would have preferred Malone over Bartells? Was is so overwhelming that their vote for MEC Chairman was egregious?


Like was it 100% of ATL based pilots wanted Malone as Chairman?

I've flown with Trip7. He's a gentleman and a scholar, in addition to being a fine pilot!

Not exactly an explanation that makes a recall justified. Hell, I'm not even sure what your saying. JMHO

to answer your question...he was hired less than 3 years ago.

all the people i converse with on a normal basis in C44 say the FO reps are the best they have ever seen and voted against the recall.

That last sentence doesn't jibe with the reality. If the FO reps are gone, the old guard and TA1 lovers return. Are you sure you know what's really going on here? I don't mean that in a negative way.

Not very good. Track record of the current Capt Reps....excellent

Why would we be going back to the old gang? Almost all are Captains. C44 currently has 2 solid, well respected Capt Reps that are not remotely old guard. Even gzsg endorsed them. I'll gladly take two more moderates like then as FO reps.

Thanks, same can be said right back at you. It was a pleasure although it was a quick trip.

Where are these "old guard" FOs coming from? Even they exist how will they win an election when you have two Moderate Captain reps with what appears to be very high approval rating in C44?

By what means are you measuring their "high approval ratings".

his own...

The recalls after TA1 were a mistake. TA2 was a result of United's and other's increased payrates and the fact that TA1 was voted down 65-35. By default, the only way TA2 could go was higher. TA2 was achieved in spite of the new LEC reps, not because of them. Malone and the NC were the primary architects of TA2. An NC selected by the original reps from TA1.

Some people thought it a good idea to recall a rep because they went against the will of the membership in a 65-35 vote against a TA. These same people now think it's wrong to recall a rep because they went against the will of the membership in a 82-18 vote for a TA.

Hypocrites.

But, despite my misgivings of the 44 FO reps I think the second recall is a mistake too. It seems petty. And if they survive the vote they will be that much stronger. That won't help those looking for moderate replacements when the time comes to negotiate the next TA.

But the dye is cast.

Nope. When reps shout down and full on insult the members they are supposed to represent in an attempt to sell an unprecedented failure of a TA, that is the time for a recall.

This recall is a farce and nothing but a power grab... the recalls post the failed TA were appropriate. You don't mess up to that level without being brought to task. I won't be voting for JJ if he runs again due to his bumblings, but a recall is completely inappropriate here.

ER,

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. The round of recalls from 2015 went down because the reps we had were in an untenable position. Much from their own doing.

1.) The way they rolled out TA15 was piece meal, misleading, secretive, and deceptive. (By the way, Malone's Administration did the exact opposite. My hat's off to them.)

2.) By the end of the voting period, we had gotten to the point when the "old guard" was in a position where they were threatening to sue member's (some of them on here) for liable and slander.


Personally, I can give you a number of reasons why I felt betrayed as to how they rolled that piece of crap out. Starting with a 25 minute discussion I had with a PTP rep in JFK ops and finishing with the braggadocios claim that they got us 3:30 vacation pay only having to find out much later that it was pay but no credit.


The bottom line is, the 2015 crew deserved to be recalled, because they had lost the trust of the pilot group.

I haven't heard any other reason why these ATL FO reps are up for recall, besides the fact that they voted for the "wrong guy" for MEC Chairman.

Trip,


What percentage of ATL pilots do you believe supported Malone for MEC Chairman?

Which reps shouted down and insulted their members? I know MD got a little loud but he was not a rep. Besides, he resigned. Did every rep who was recalled shout down and insult their members or are you taking what one rep did and projecting onto every rep you disagreed with at the time?

I do agree that if a rep acted like this they should be recalled. But a wave of recalls because they all acted as you said? You thought recalls were appropriate because you didn't like TA1.

If one didn't like the TA the appropriate response was a No vote. Not numerous recalls. 38% voted No to C2012 and there were no recalls for that.

But the recall Pandora's box was opened with the Kingsley R. recall. The sweeping TA1 recalls served to make recalls normal every time someone doesn't like something. Also a mistake IMO.

And here we are.

Regarding the appropriateness of recalls for TA1 v now.

The reps in TA1 cost us real, no kidding money. This time, not only did they not cost us money, they're the ones who helped put it in our pockets (along with JM).

If loyalty to one man is enough to justify these recalls, a special election that will open the door for the recall of the new MEC Chair, the new Vice Chair, the new Secretary and the new Treasurer followed immediately by a contentious election for new MEC officers with a completely dysfunctional MEC, and another round of elections in C44 to replace the interim reps (or confirm them), then So Be It.

Pay attention folks. This is exactly the plan.

Unlike the recalls for TA1, no good will one of this recall effort for the bulk of 13,000 pilots - only a few who are going through FPL withdrawals will benefit.

Oh, the MEC wants you to wear your ALPA pin.

You know, unity and all.

Overwhelming majority. 70%+

What Johnson and Kern did to 44 with their MEC executive votes is akin to walking right into the heart of Ohio State's campus and planting a Michigan flag.

Kern nominated someone moderate for a MEC position then voted for a strong 12er. Is is normal to not vote for someone you nominated?

Ok. What next? What's the plan? You dump these guys to what end? Just punishment? The "damage" is done. Recalling these two does not negate the election.

Go ahead. Tell us the real plan. Recall these two. Elect interim proactive appeasers at a poorly attended C44 meeting, then recall the new MEC Chair and the other three. Then hold an election to put in who, exactly, as the new Chair?? And he'll have a margin of one as his mandate. The MEC will devolve even further. And this benefits the Delta pilots how?

Please, someone explain how this recall benefits the Atlanta and Delta pilots.

Please.

The plan is to nominate 2 moderate and reasonable FO reps that will vote according to the will of 44 like the CA reps do(So goes 44, so goes the MEC). The Council needs to be well represented now that the new regime is in power. Especially if they are attempting to make big changes to MEC policy as outlined in Captain Worrall's communique.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again....I want some of whatever you are smoking to get to this fantasy world you are in.

I'm curious why we need FO reps at all (using your logic).

Please do share with us Captain Worrall's communique. I know not of what you speak. I can guess though.

Holy cow. We are turning the clock back 10 years.

You might need something to get over your chronic grumpiness:D. Just worry about your Council and you'll be alright.

You really believe Capt Worralls crap? He's the SLC version of Curly.

I am a fan of Malone and think he would be a better MEC chair. That said, this recall effort is a joke. Kern and Johnson have every right to vote for the person they think best to run the union. I'm getting tired of this BS where there is a recall effort every time someone gets their panties in a wad. A recall should be saved for something fraudulent or criminal. Otherwise, if you don't like how they represent you vote them out in the next election.

I voted against recall, even though I'm sure I would not vote for them if they ran again in the next election.

don't worry, I'm doing my part to ensure Worrall doesn't get back in. :D

Let''s say you're right and 70% of ATL pilots preferred Malone. Even if that's the case (and it might not be), why do you think 100% of the reps should have voted form him?

What about the 30-40% of ATL pilots who wanted Bartells?

He only thinks of himself. He doesn't understand that everyone has different wants/needs. Personally if I told my rep I wanted BB and they voted for JM I'd feel like he doesn't represent my beliefs but I wouldn't take it to a recall. They have the whole picture.

If 70% was the case, (likely much higher than that) then a 3-1 vote would have been more reasonable similar to the TA vote. 50/50 vote is rediculous for as much support as JM has in 44.

False. You and tunes are like Bert and Ernie. You see one you see the other wherever I post. I expand the team to gather info. Both Capt Reps have stated publically, the feedback they received had OVERWHELMING support for JM.

If that's your logic, you should recall just one of the Reps. :)


What evidence do you have that Malone likely had more support than 70% of ATL pilots?

The sad thing is beyond a moakie power grab this screams "pulling up the ladder" You have Captains, Trip7, who are attempting to recall FO reps. These FO reps are looking out for the younger pilots long term (which should include Trip) but the Captains don't want to rock the boat so they are recalling them. This is my opinion.

There is no evidence of specific numbers. The evidence we have is the statement of overwhelming support in feedback received by the Captain reps. Notice how the FO reps don't mention feedback in their decision but more their thought process after "interviewing" JM and BB. Yet in the C44 update prior to the election all CK and JJ stated were give me your input while both SD and SM gave detailed analysis about who they planned to vote for. It's clear that the majority of 44 preferred JM and the FO reps ignored it for their own agenda

Do you think perhaps the Captain reps received their feedback from mostly Captains? So 50% of the base. I'm sure the FOs talk to their own reps.

Their own reps? Do only FOs vote for FO reps and vice versa for Capts in elections/recalls? You're on quite a streak here with this and your company will unilaterally impose 9:45 post:rolleyes:

So, why do reps vote and not the pilots?

I always chuckle at pilots who want their reps to lead by taking polls. That's not how leasership works. At least where I come from.