Swagship

Supervisors are just as bad. Sure grieve it after, but they get away with whatever they want in the moment to get those flights covered, and the company mostly doesn't care because the flight operates.

theUpsideDown

Fly it and grieve it. They get away with covering the flight and then pay you violation pay on top of it. To be clear that is the only way that works, any other response (say refusing) will end in formal discipline.

They will do, whatever they want. The courts are very clear, the RLA is very clear. As unhappy a circumstance as it may seem, you're at work, and their needs come before yours, no union can protect you from it. ALPA is, however, remarkably good at getting you extra money for that kick in the nuts.

Blueskies21

Not entirely correct, if you're 100% sure that what they're asking you to do is a contract violation, you don't have to do it and you won't face discipline. You may get an NFA (not available for flight assignment) but if you're correct and it's not a contractually compliant assignment, the meeting, if there is one, will not result in you being disciplined.

In most cases guys don't know the contract well enough to risk it but it is your option.

Fly it and grieve came about because if you're wrong and the proposed assignment is contractually compliant, then you'll get in trouble. So better to fly it, grieve it and get a remedy if you're correct than risk discipline if you're wrong.

But you certainly don't have to fly it and grieve it if you're sure. I've refused illegal assignments with no consequences but I was pretty darn sure it was illegal and I was very polite but firm with the schedulers. They have a job to do, it's a tough one with hundreds of moving pieces, generally they're not out to get us, they're trying to get through their day and if you treat them that way it works better for everyone.

theUpsideDown

Historically, the pilot- even in the right- will be disciplined and then have their record expunged after the fact or if terminated, their job returned with lost pay. However those aren't the norms.

Fly it and grieve it came about because pilots pretending to be lawyers is a tale as old as time, and it was decided decades ago the pilot shall do as the employeer demands and can avail himself of the RLA at a later time.

I have successfully refused when told to do something in violation of the contract, but only after making the supervisor or CP come around to reason. Luckily our CP is ex-union. However, if all resources fail fly it and grieve it is the law. If anyone doubts that get clarification from the lawyers we pay for.

Blueskies21

I think you and I are saying most of the same things, I'm just significantly less upset with the RLA for it.

I've lived though some dark days at this airline and in the industry in general, seems like we're in a generally pretty good place now. I, for one, am going to enjoy it while it lasts.

theUpsideDown

We may be saying similar things but I'm 99% sure JS is gonna say law. With that said, she's the expert, i can only tell you what I think I know.

Blueskies21

Could be, I've been wrong before, I'll probably be wrong again at some point.

We've both refused (although I'm guessing we both did so politely) and I definitely wasn't disciplined.

As with anything in our business, it's risk management, are you willing to risk that you've wrongly interpreted the contract? If not, fly it and grieve it.

I guess if I'm wrong Jane can put fly it and grieve it in a fast read.

nkweb

How much do you get paid if the company violates the contract?

theUpsideDown

Depends if they pay after you do the work to submit the issue form. But sometimes as little as one hour, often between 2-6, and if u get flat out hosed because some jerkwad cut the line on your flying to trade favors with a scheduler it can be the value of the trip stolen.

clueless

CS has only once asked me to do something against the contract and they knew it...I said “that’s against the contract, make it worth my while”...or something to that effect...they said ok 150% on top of guarantee...that was that. No grieving, no Jane...easy peasy