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I'm glad I was able to see and taste what management was putting in their kool-aid. I'm sure Wychor thought the same thing when he was being a salesman and ended up getting rejected during the SSP twice
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Originally Posted by FlyingKat
(Post 1859914)
Bingo. But I wouldn't bet on a merger or staple. Delta can just move the aircraft from the Endeavor certificate to the DL certificate, interview and hire the pilots it wants, and can the others. Why would you merge and pay a Senior captain DL pay rates when you can move the planes, hire them as new hires and pay them year one pay?
I live in DL country, have a lot of friends there, and commute on DL all the time. Everyone you talk to thinks there will be little if any outsourced flying at DL in ten years. Pilots have a problem thinking like accountants. Its all about saving cost and maximizing profit. You outsource something because the hit you take in quality is greatly offset by the reduced cost. If the product you are outsourcing has little if any cost savings, why outsource it? Then you insource it. Right now Endeavor is paying $20,000 extra a year which is approximately $20 an hour. New hire pay rates are $25 an hour. If Endeavor is forced to pay 200% for pickups then you are producing the product (flying) for $70/hour ($20+$25+$25). What is Delta's new hire payrate on the 717? $70 an hour. Its not just Delta. TSA just got a $10,000 bonus plus everyone can see 200% coming like a freight train. So we will potentially be performing flying at $58 an hour ($24+$24+$10) and United's new hire pay rate is $66 an hour. Keep in mind under these fee for departure contracts regionals are guaranteed a profit margin so mainline has to pick up the extra cost to guarantee that margin The numbers are similar when you look at CA rates vs CA narrowbody pay rates. So if you don't have huge savings anymore then why are you going to outsource? Insourcing will be the trend and in 5-10 years it is likely all the large RJ flying will be perfomed at mainline and the few regionals that are left will go back to flying pro rate contracts to small destinations with EMB 170 and MRJ type aircraft because they have CASMs that are competitive with narrowbodies. Everyone that wants to be at mainline will be. Some will choose to stay at regionals because they will return to more profitable and stable pro rate flying similiar to what they performed in the late 70s and mid 80s before the advent of fee for departure contracts. Endeavor is ahead of everyone in the bonus game because they got to the critical level first. As this shortage progresses, more and more bonuses will be offered to the point that even the slowpokes at United will figure it out. I give RA and his NWA boys at DL credit. They have always been ahead of the curve when it comes to the accounting. They are ruthless as hell and would sell their mothers to make a nickel, but are very shrewd businessmen. DL can see the writing on the wall. People can choose to not believe in a pilot shortage, but the numbers are what the numbers are. The fact that DL is working on an Ab Initio program should be an indicator of what the future holds. |
Originally Posted by FlyingKat
(Post 1859914)
Bingo. But I wouldn't bet on a merger or staple. Delta can just move the aircraft from the Endeavor certificate to the DL certificate, interview and hire the pilots it wants, and can the others. Why would you merge and pay a Senior captain DL pay rates when you can move the planes, hire them as new hires and pay them year one pay?
I live in DL country, have a lot of friends there, and commute on DL all the time. Everyone you talk to thinks there will be little if any outsourced flying at DL in ten years. Pilots have a problem thinking like accountants. Its all about saving cost and maximizing profit. You outsource something because the hit you take in quality is greatly offset by the reduced cost. If the product you are outsourcing has little if any cost savings, why outsource it? Then you insource it. Right now Endeavor is paying $20,000 extra a year which is approximately $20 an hour. New hire pay rates are $25 an hour. If Endeavor is forced to pay 200% for pickups then you are producing the product (flying) for $70/hour ($20+$25+$25). What is Delta's new hire payrate on the 717? $70 an hour. Its not just Delta. TSA just got a $10,000 bonus plus everyone can see 200% coming like a freight train. So we will potentially be performing flying at $58 an hour ($24+$24+$10) and United's new hire pay rate is $66 an hour. Keep in mind under these fee for departure contracts regionals are guaranteed a profit margin so mainline has to pick up the extra cost to guarantee that margin The numbers are similar when you look at CA rates vs CA narrowbody pay rates. So if you don't have huge savings anymore then why are you going to outsource? Insourcing will be the trend and in 5-10 years it is likely all the large RJ flying will be perfomed at mainline and the few regionals that are left will go back to flying pro rate contracts to small destinations with EMB 170 and MRJ type aircraft because they have CASMs that are competitive with narrowbodies. Everyone that wants to be at mainline will be. Some will choose to stay at regionals because they will return to more profitable and stable pro rate flying similiar to what they performed in the late 70s and mid 80s before the advent of fee for departure contracts. Endeavor is ahead of everyone in the bonus game because they got to the critical level first. As this shortage progresses, more and more bonuses will be offered to the point that even the slowpokes at United will figure it out. I give RA and his NWA boys at DL credit. They have always been ahead of the curve when it comes to the accounting. They are ruthless as hell and would sell their mothers to make a nickel, but are very shrewd businessmen. |
Originally Posted by Kforekyle
(Post 1860011)
I don't think Delta can take just the airplanes without taking the pilots. We can't staff the a/c we have right now. Hire who they want? The ssp is at 65% right now. We have 4 sims for 81 ac. does not add up! They are going to add more ac. A very good flow or a staple with a fence is probably what they are going to do.
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Originally Posted by pylit4lyfe
(Post 1860056)
If you can't staff the aircraft you currently have why would they bring more airplanes? Does Endeavor "own" 4 900 sims? There's two at Pan Am in MSP (do they own or lease?) and where are the other 2 that they own?
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Originally Posted by Kforekyle
(Post 1860011)
I don't think Delta can take just the airplanes without taking the pilots. We can't staff the a/c we have right now. Hire who they want? The ssp is at 65% right now. We have 4 sims for 81 ac. does not add up! They are going to add more ac. A very good flow or a staple with a fence is probably what they are going to do.
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Originally Posted by Kforekyle
(Post 1860067)
A good flow or staple will attract more pilots from other airlines. Taking the 200s back to fill in the gap until the new 900s come online. Last year bought a brand new 900 sim (18mil.) Converted a 200 sim to a 900 sim. (1mil.) 2 existing sims.=4 900 sims. If you don't think something is very big on the horizon you are fooling your self.
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Originally Posted by pylit4lyfe
(Post 1860108)
Just like Comair that was wholly owned?
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Originally Posted by pylit4lyfe
(Post 1860108)
Just like Comair that was wholly owned?
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Originally Posted by gojo
(Post 1860125)
Do you even think or do research before you speak? Maybe educate yourself on the differences between the Comair contract, the age of Comair's 200 fleet, the average longevity at Comair, and the fact that Delta has piggy backed Endeavor to almost every major function for further cost efficiency. If you do exactly that you will see that other than Delta owning Endeavor they have very little in common. Your Comair reference is sounding childish, as you offer no facts beyond that
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Originally Posted by FlyingKat
(Post 1860106)
One of the dangers of being a wholly owned is mainline can pretty much do whatever they want with you when it comes to increasing or decreasing your flying. DALPA would likely never agree to anything other than a flow or preferential hiring. I can't see Delta paying anything other than new hire wages if they move you over to mainline. Why would Delta pay for a merger where they would have to pay pilots at their present longevity, when they could move the planes over, hire who they want either through a flow or preferential hiring, and start everyone at year one pay. Its all about the cash in the end.
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Originally Posted by gojo
(Post 1860125)
Do you even think or do research before you speak? Maybe educate yourself on the differences between the Comair contract, the age of Comair's 200 fleet, the average longevity at Comair, and the fact that Delta has piggy backed Endeavor to almost every major function for further cost efficiency. If you do exactly that you will see that other than Delta owning Endeavor they have very little in common. Your Comair reference is sounding childish, as you offer no facts beyond that
There were plenty of Delta executives that came over to run Comair (Fred Buttrell anyone?) so that argument doesn't wash either. We'll see what happens with Endeavor. Bottom line is DL management is using you guys and Gojet for a reason. That reason is rate resets. Delta threats to take flying away aren't credible unless Endeavor and Gojet can staff. Hence Delta's desperation to make things look sunny at Endeavor. Gojet is another matter. But I'm glad things are getting better at Endeavor. You guys deserve every cent of that bonus. But Delta did many of the same things at Comair and ASA before cutting them loose. Until this rate reset issue with Skywest gets worked out it is hard to say what is going to happen. Delta could be rewriting all this stuff because 9E was such a mess to start with, and they want to pretty it up for an IPO. You never know with these guys. Bottom line they will do what makes them the most money. Going forward the biggest advantage all of us have is the ever increasing problem staffing regional airlines, which is supposed to get worse. Hopefully these trends will continue and you guys get some kind of flow or expediting hiring to DL. That is the best you will ever get out of this. Quite frankly you sound like the Comair and ASA guys in 2002 when they kept claiming the merger was just around the corner and it never happened. It is obvious something is up with Mother Delta and regional flying. The numbers point to a return of large RJs to mainline. But the how and when will be interesting to see how it works out, but I can't see DL pilots allowing a merger, and I don't see Delta executives paying Endeavor pilots at their present longevity when they could take them as newhires and pay them year one wages. For now enjoy the $20,000 a year and move up out of there as fast as you can. |
Originally Posted by Ray Red
(Post 1860142)
Unions have no say in what it who their airline decides to buy, who they hire, or flow agreements. If it was a merger, an integrated seniority list is decided by an arbitrator if the two parties can't come up with a list on their own. IF there was a merger all pilots would keep their longevity no matter what their new seniority ends up being.
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBound
(Post 1859578)
I"m far from bitter and have have left that negativity in the cockpit where I found it in the legacy Pinnacle cockpit.. I'm a captain at my current airline making more than the lame and short term bonus you guys are getting in the next few years. I'd still be an 8 year FO there so the fact that people are crazy enough to consider 9E as a newbie makes me want to help them avoid it at all costs. I can say how bad a place is (I still have several friends there who tell me how is) and not be bitter about it. Facts are Facts...all emotion aside.
Now you're just bad impression of ShyGuy. |
Originally Posted by FlyingKat
(Post 1860147)
You need to read up on Ford vs ALPA. DALPA refused to agree to merging lists, and Comair and ASA guys tried to sue under ALPAs merger and fragmentation clause and lost. The merger and fragmentation clause does not apply to a wholly owned.
Wasn't Ford v ALPA the lawsuit from the RJDC that accused ALPA of not representing Comair? I didn't see anything about seniority list integrations. Was that a different issue than Ford v ALPA? |
Originally Posted by Ray Red
(Post 1860169)
Wasn't Ford v ALPA the lawsuit from the RJDC that accused ALPA of not representing Comair? I didn't see anything about seniority list integrations. Was that a different issue than Ford v ALPA?
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Originally Posted by Bartok
(Post 1860158)
Man, I used to like your posts once upon a time.....
Now you're just bad impression of ShyGuy. |
Originally Posted by AlaskaBound
(Post 1860179)
Sorry to disappoint. Maybe you can go over to the compass thread and you can enjoy some more of my posts. Shyguy is on a whole different level. I tell it how I see it.
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBound
(Post 1860179)
Sorry to disappoint. Maybe you can go over to the compass thread and you can enjoy some more of my posts. Shyguy is on a whole different level. I tell it how I see it.
"By placing pilots based on the most effective training output, the following incremental results were obtained: • Additional CRJ-200 flying starting in July • At least 6 pilots will move to Delta via the SSP earlier than planned • the additional lines of flight require 10 additional CA positions to support flying • the average New Hire training footprint is reduced by at least 16 days . Just this single event stops the planned reduction to CRJ-200 aircraft and allows expansion. All Endeavor people benefit from growth and increased flying and this is an outstanding turn of events. Subsequent to this change, Endeavor will likely post 15-03 in early or mid-May, which will be designed to increase CA seats from forecast to meet the accelerated output of FOs and potentially improve change flying levels / SSP releases based on the results." |
Originally Posted by TalkTurkey
(Post 1860353)
Well then you're as blind as a dead baboon's bum hole. Plus you're still colon-inflamed that you left here and that's why you bash us. Keep flying your Composted Roses in hate. I ain't mad atcha. For those who are considering 9E, here's an update
"By placing pilots based on the most effective training output, the following incremental results were obtained: • Additional CRJ-200 flying starting in July • At least 6 pilots will move to Delta via the SSP earlier than planned • the additional lines of flight require 10 additional CA positions to support flying • the average New Hire training footprint is reduced by at least 16 days . Just this single event stops the planned reduction to CRJ-200 aircraft and allows expansion. All Endeavor people benefit from growth and increased flying and this is an outstanding turn of events. Subsequent to this change, Endeavor will likely post 15-03 in early or mid-May, which will be designed to increase CA seats from forecast to meet the accelerated output of FOs and potentially improve change flying levels / SSP releases based on the results." |
Originally Posted by FlyingKat
(Post 1860177)
Yes the RJDC was created and the suit initiated for nonrepresentation because ALPA refused to enact the merger and acquisition clause and merge lists.
http://www.leagle.com/decision/20035...Supp2d271_1508 Summary: This action results from a dispute between certain pilots for Comair, Inc. ("Comair"), an airline company that contracts with its parent company Delta Air Lines to fly part of Delta's routes, and their union, the Air Line Pilots Association ("ALPA") and its President, Duane E. Woerth (together, "Defendants"). Plaintiffs assert that Defendants, who represent the pilots for both Comair and Delta, breached their duties to Comair's pilots when they negotiated a collective bargaining agreement on behalf of Delta pilots that restricts the number and type of flights that Comair may fly. Plaintiffs also assert that Defendants breached their duties by fail process plaintiffs' grievances regarding these issues. |
Originally Posted by gojo
(Post 1860415)
No point trying to reason with him. For some people their day is gonna be dark and gloomy regardless. Haters are gonna hate.
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It amazing how people who left Endeavor years ago still think they know so much about the company just because "they have friends at Endeavor"
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I've been eyeing Endeavor for a while because of the retention bonus. They came to a job fair at the flight school I work at, and I had been looking forward to it, but unfortunately it looks like the job fair was geared more towards our AMT students. I was basically wondering does Endeavor have different recruiters when it comes to Pilots, and AMT? Not to sound disrespectful because the person was nice but they sounded kind of clueless as far as how things worked with the restricted ATP and all.
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Originally Posted by seminolepilot
(Post 1866871)
Not to sound disrespectful because the person was nice but they sounded kind of clueless as far as how things worked with the restricted ATP and all.
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Endeavor has started paying for some guys to attend an ATP-CTP course and then start a new hire class. There should be an in house ATP program in the near future.
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Yea it's been a while since we had a job fair and I thought they usually sent a pilot down to the job fair. The person was in business casual clothes. Overall I'm glad they came, it just kind of surprised me, and thankfully I got my ATP written knocked out before the deadline last year so I don't have to worry about that.
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It sounds like you had a mechanic come and therefor it probably was geared toward finding mechanics. If it were a pilot job fair, someone would have been sent that is a pilot and would have been wearing a pilot uniform. Possibly even fly in a CRJ-200 to look at. Go ahead and put in an application if you are interested. We aren't Spirit or Frontier. We offer interviews without attending a million job fairs first.
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Originally Posted by FlyingKat
(Post 1860106)
One of the dangers of being a wholly owned is mainline can pretty much do whatever they want with you when it comes to increasing or decreasing your flying. DALPA would likely never agree to anything other than a flow or preferential hiring. I can't see Delta paying anything other than new hire wages if they move you over to mainline. Why would Delta pay for a merger where they would have to pay pilots at their present longevity, when they could move the planes over, hire who they want either through a flow or preferential hiring, and start everyone at year one pay. Its all about the cash in the end.
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Since I have not seen it recently posted. Our latest SSP numbers have been passing high 80's and I heard last week has a pass rate over 90%. This is a big increase from the 50's and 60's. So I just wanted to point it out to those who care.
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Speaking of the SSP- I recently encountered a guy that does interviews that said the SSP is winding down due to dwindling amounts of applicants. In his words "it's pretty much over." What's going on there?
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What size flight bags fit in the bucket?
Is it 18 x 8 max?
I'm thinking about buying one before class starts. |
It's the excuse that "FOs got caught with their pants down" with respect to the SSP being extended to them. Many are scrambling to get their applications in now but it is taking a lot of time for many (don't know why) to get their ducks in a row that the SSP is getting pretty deep down the FO list. Once it hits the most junior eligible the SSP ends. It is not that far yet. I am a 2011 hire with my application in. No calls/email yet and I do not expect it at least for several more months. There are people junior to me eligible as well. So it is not quite over, just more FOs need to get their stuff in or it could be over sooner than we all think.
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As for captains, it's pretty much done...might be a few stragglers here or there.
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Originally Posted by pa28dakota
(Post 1867297)
It's the excuse that "FOs got caught with their pants down" with respect to the SSP being extended to them. Many are scrambling to get their applications in now but it is taking a lot of time for many (don't know why) to get their ducks in a row that the SSP is getting pretty deep down the FO list. Once it hits the most junior eligible the SSP ends. It is not that far yet. I am a 2011 hire with my application in. No calls/email yet and I do not expect it at least for several more months. There are people junior to me eligible as well. So it is not quite over, just more FOs need to get their stuff in or it could be over sooner than we all think.
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I don't know how much 9E wants it done, but it seems from inside looking out it appears Delta does not have any issue with the prospect of it ending and as a result being released from the SSP/Bridge Agreement obligations.
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Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
(Post 1867265)
Speaking of the SSP- I recently encountered a guy that does interviews that said the SSP is winding down due to dwindling amounts of applicants. In his words "it's pretty much over." What's going on there?
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I don't see the SSP hitting the bottom until every pilot has had their opportunity for the second interview. Every month more pilots become eligible to reinterview. Obviously the numbers get smaller but there are still a few eligible candidates every month.
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Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
(Post 1867265)
Speaking of the SSP- I recently encountered a guy that does interviews that said the SSP is winding down due to dwindling amounts of applicants. In his words "it's pretty much over." What's going on there?
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Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
(Post 1867265)
Speaking of the SSP- I recently encountered a guy that does interviews that said the SSP is winding down due to dwindling amounts of applicants. In his words "it's pretty much over." What's going on there?
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