He can crank away on his abacus and etch a sketch all day getting those vacancies done. I don't have anything to sweat, but the new folks will have a blast trying to decipher what gets reduced here, there, and everywhere to fight for their upgrade.

Really helpful attitude.

I never asked you to solve anything for me, and I'm not so concerned about it to call in sick for trips.

I'm going to be fine. I guess I'll be logging flight time not block time.

I said, there could be a problem here, and raised a question.

You said, baselessly as far a I can tell, there's no problem, everything's fine.

Will it be fine? Maybe. Until it's not.

I've got plenty of options, I'll be fine. That may not be the case for everybody if, for some reason, this were not fine and it blew up in our faces as a result of an incident or accident.

I'll wait to see if it plays out and look through the letters of interpretation to see if there really IS one that covers this.

It must be nice to know everything and never have any doubts. When I was 25 I knew everything too, maybe you'll grow out of it. Or maybe you won't, some guys know everything forever.

Idk man, I'm worried. You should call now. I wouldn't go to work until you get answers. It's super important don't trust anything the company says, just make up what you want to do.
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Grownups don't have work conversations like this on a web board. Read the memos fully, the phone number to call is right on there. You're so far out of your element it's clear you need someone other than me to untwist (because I can't swear on here) your head. The company wants you're call, trust me, they want your head straightened out.

When I doubt a memo or misunderstand it, i call the number or i call standards and follow with an email for clarification. Assuming when a DO or the like speaks, you shut your mouth and learn, the company can straighten out your perplexing problem solving skills. If anyone should be calling, it is you.

And honest to God, it's great not being as lost in the weeds as you. It's eye opening these concerns and conversations are real and you wouldn't call the company and ATFQ.

Haha. Thanks for your concern. As I said, I'll be fine.

I'll wait and see if we get any additional clarification from the Company and I'll look into how the tracking gets accomplished the next couple times I fly.

Is it a big deal today? Nope, just started. Will it be a big deal later? I don't know.

I don't think the Company or the POI or anyone else is intentionally lying to us, I'm just concerned there's an unintended consequence they didn't consider.

You disagree. That's fine.

I agree, it IS eye opening. You can't conceive of anyone not immediately sharing your view.

Actually it's not eye opening for me, I know such people exist, and it's not eye opening for you, because, let's be honest, you're not real interested in learning anything you don't already know.

Can we move on now?

If it stays like this, I'll ask in a bit, will that make you feel better about my sanity?

You do understand that 14 CFR 1.1 has a definition of flight time, and it is not block out to block in, right?

Sigh....just a little over 2.5 years and I can retire...I wonder if I will waste my time reading this trite nonsense when I am bored ...kinda like I do now.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

All of these 4/5 day trips in OT.. You think they could've added more lines and gave those trips to people who are now on reserve?

The company is contractually obligated to post 5% of the credit time per position in open time, may be the reason for it.

Work work work work work work contract contract work work work FAR interpretations work work work

It's not.

I watched this nonsense for years, wondering why guys don't just post the answer. Now I know. Bizarrely, web boards aren't for answers, just the opposite.

I understand perfectly well. And I'm done with this conversation. I've got better things to do. Log your time however you like.

Sweet Jesus I can't believe the reticence of people to read memos...

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If you understand the FAA's definition of flight time so perfectly well, then why are you "confused" about people's hesitation over unquestioningly believing the memo that says to log time contrary to that definition?

We read the memos. What part of their content do you think is not acknowledged in our posts? (If you answer that the memo says "logbook time will continue to be aligned..." then first, ask yourself how that resolves the discrepancy in question. Second, ask yourself how we could be talking about that discrepancy in the first place, if we had not read the statement that you accuse us of not reading. Third, if you think that statement itself resolves the discrepancy, then spend some time focusing on your own reading abilities rather than others'.)

Mind numbing.

Shocking and mind numbing.

ANYWAY...TSA now has a flow with Frontier, an airline they have absolutely no affiliation with. Yes Frontier is a joke, but still... I'm sure there are some among us that would love to take a 50% pay cut for the opportunity to fly an Airbus! :p

Wow. I take a couple of days off, and the douche nozzles go crazy!

Flight time has begun with movement under own power for many, many years now. Anyone who was logging otherwise was cheating. You should turn your logbooks into the FAA for review and self-suspend your flying.

It's fine.

Those of us that understand the question won't have a problem.

It's those guys who just blindly accept the "continue to log block time" mantra that could find themselves crosswise.

Let's say this whole 5th OOOI time works EXACTLY as well as the Company thinks it will, and therefore you have days where you're blocking 10 or 11 hrs a day. Are you going to put 10 or 11 hours of FLIGHT TIME in your logbook? (Which would show you violating an FAR?) Let's say you do, and you find yourself at a major airline interview, or across from an FAA inspector for a check ride and they ask you... "How could you have logged 11 hrs of 121 flight time in a day?" Now you're in an awkward position where you have to say "well that's block time not flight time..." but the column is labeled flight time... and the interview or the check ride is over at that point....

If you know you've made the choice to log block not flight time, then if someone notices and complains, you will have brought that upon yourself. If a guy has no idea it's even a question and blindly accepts the continue how you have been then that sucks for him and it'd have been nice to warn him about the choice he's making.

All that said.... HighFlight- you've been logging flight time all along?? How did you track pushback to forward motion before yesterday??

I guess we all got the ALPA email today saying don't go to work at Frontier?? Was the TSA thing what that was about? Isn't Frontier ALPA too?

Pretty simple. I won't be logging over 9 hours of block time. If the company tries to work me over that, I'm calling in fatigued. Just another example of them trying to squeeze that little bit more out of us.

Curious
 

Why has it taken the company so long to come up with this new OOOI memo about what flight time really means? That definition has been in the FARs for a long time.

All these new memos and ways of doing things has me suspect. Not long after the contract was signed, all this creativeness came forward, scheduling especially. An example is Reserve never being "green". We have FLICA but it's a difficult system to use when it's hard to drop and trade Reserve. I do not think that was the intent of the agreement and FLICA.

The flight time things is just that, trying to squeeze more out of us for the deal they got in back in December.

In all fairness the reserve grid has never been green in the last 2.5 years but maybe a month or two with a handful of days. If we want to control the grid then we'll lose 150% pickups. But I agree with the flight time.....seems like it goes against the spirit of the regulation to me. We already have to do preflight duties of 20 to 30 mins without it going to our daily flight time. Now add on any additional latency issues after the door closes such as ramp problems, customer issues, performance issues, GDPs, etc and it can climb over an hour or more easy. Don't know about you guys, but I'm definitely doing flight specific and related duties during that time period so I think it should count towards flight time, but I guess the FAA disagrees.

While it is coincidental to the TA coming in I think these issues we’ve been seeing (firebreaks, fifth OOOI etc.) have little to do with the TA. In other words I think we would’ve seen these things anyway had the TA been voted down. The factors that these operational changes are trying to fix have existed long before the TA signing and I don’t recall there being contract language pre-TA that restricted the company from firebreaks and fifth OOOI. Correct me if I’m wrong.

And for the record I’m not saying this as a company parrot/kool-aid drinker.

Wow. Just wow.

You'd better get over to Delta quick and help us reinvent 121.

Do you actually work for any airline? Endeavor or otherwise?

You thought of applying to tech pubs? I dont come in here much anymore but i should come in for laughs more often.

Yup.

Concerned about following the rules and not logging more flight time than allowed by the regs.

Completely ridiculous.

My bad.

Move along.

So concerned you're gonna call for clarification? Or lower level of concern where you'll do a facebook poll?

I was thinking of making a new Reddit ID and posting there.... is that not going to work?? Surely there's a 121 sub reddit. Or maybe I can make one just for this!!! Ooo I'm so excited now.

Seriously, I'm over it. I'll log the new flight time because that's what my logbook imports and I'm not going to change it to block, I'm guessing the Company actually WILL use flight time for all their regulatory purposes and life will go on.

I did learn a valuable lesson out of this though, if I've got a legitimate question that I'd like other guys input on, don't ask here, it will end with them telling you to read a memo that doesn't clarify and at 3 internet loudmouths calling you crazy.

I've got an early report tomorrow, can we put this to bed now?

Was thinking about this....what about outstations tou dont push out of? CWA, VLD, BQK...etc. maybe a prolonged forward rotation also triggers it

We did get a notice the other day that they stopped tracking it on the 200 due to some issue...possibly related to this. The only airport on the 900 I’ve seen in my limited time where we didn’t push back was BMI.

Yep saw the memo. Figured there would be some hurdles to make this all work out

Log flight time by the legal definition. You are talking about 5-10 hours difference over the course of a year in NYC. I'm not religious, but my God, it's as simple as that. You are making highflights worthless posts tolerable; so I guess you've contributed.

Guess not.

You know there is an ignore feature on here, right? Don’t hate me because I’m beautiful. :D

It’s actually more like a 100 hour difference on 1000 hours, if average of 12 mins out of an average 2 hour flight are at the gate / pushback / disconnect.

It all depends on when you release the parking brake. My guess is 5 minutes a leg. Probably 50 hours a year.

Union and company.... When they both agree it must be right...

Q: What times should the pilots use for their logbooks?
A: The pilots should use the ACARS (OUT-IN) times for logbook times (as they do today). If that is not available, the logbook time can be referenced in Rainmaker. Select the pairing number and the last column shown (ActDur) is the OUT-IN time for the flight.
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I think the union is just echoing the Company info, I don't think either of them have an FAA interpretation to support that.

For what it's worth we DO have a direct answer from the company/union of which times they're using for tracking various items.

I still wouldn't log more than 8 or 9 flight hours in my logbook but I guess that's up to each of us.

You sure are quick to admit you're new and know very little, but slow to call and find out why what the company says (and the union clarified) is correct. It's like you're half a professional pilot.

FAR 1.1 is clear.

Literally every pilot I've ever flown with logs block.

Also, I hope no one logged Hobbs time when they went through flight training, instructing, or cargo... Since it's almost universally based on battery on with engine running and has nothing to do with movement.

In my decade as a flight instructor I've never met someone that logged movement time in GA. Furthermore, the FAA reps I worked with logged and approved Hobbs logging.



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Logging Hobbs time in GA, and out-in at the airlines, has been a close-enough approximation to 1.1 that has been generally accepted without the FAA bringing up the discrepancy.

But now that the plane tracks (and supplies) exact 1.1, that's much shakier ground to stand on. Especially with the fact that out-in will give times greater than 117 allows. Do you really want to deal with the possibility of having to answer for why you logged more than 9 hours in one day?