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Originally Posted by highfarfast
(Post 2589364)
Email also said the displacements will happen before ATTOT opens and those displaced are not subject to reasignment. There really hasn’t been much available at ATTOT for a while.
OT after that will still be fair game for those that want it. Still curious to find out if those displaced will be able to pick up OT on the days they were displaced AND whether it’s premium or not. |
Originally Posted by mketch11
(Post 2589304)
If the argument is that this was to settle the grievances for only the protected pilots, then why did my QOL get traded away? If I give something away I should get something back in this climate.
My point is, we finally had leverage and now it’s gone for more benefit to the company than the pilots. The only reason the company came to the negotiating table is because they believed that that pilots had areasonable argument as to the flow violations. Upper hand pilots. Secondly, the company is in desperate need of capatains regardless, upper hand pilots. Here are the pros. 1) The protected pilots get anywhere from 0 to 3.5 months less time to flow. 2) HVAs and get 3 months of home based tdy if they get put in New York along with the 45k (non HVAs should be able to bid to other bases if they want so this hardly affects them) 3) Captain upgrades get 3 months pay at captain rates (hardly a pro since the company is saving that much plus more not paying out retention bonuses) Cons: 1) forced upgrades now require 50 less hours. 2) must be a captain to flow. 3) FOs who try to avoid flying by bidding reserve are forced to fly out of seniority order which is a fundamental change in the whole idea of why one bids reserve. 4) the protected pilots who have already flowed to AA and were violated get nothing. 5) the company now has an increased ability to attract HVAs which zaps any leverage the pilot group may have had to negotiate for increased captain pay (which hurts the lifers who have gained nothing by this LOA) For those saying this was a fair deal I sincerely doubt that in the long term. Like getting 3 months of increased pay and QOL instead of 8 years of higher wages. |
Originally Posted by Dekal5
(Post 2589387)
Sam when do you flow again? :confused:
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Originally Posted by wiz5422
(Post 2589380)
It says AFTER ATTOT window.
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Originally Posted by Dekal5
(Post 2589387)
Agreed. I think we did not get a fair shake. We have been waiting for so long for the union to do something but it seems like the company got exactly what they wanted and what did we really get in return? Apart from putting the protected pilot flow back on track, we did not get a something that benefits the pilot group as a whole. I’m glad LGA pilots are getting some help for the first 3 months which improves their QOL but that’s about it. Pay? It is great that now pilots get CA pay as soon as they are awarded a CA bid but that is money the company was going to pay regardless in retention bonuses. The union screwed FO’s, which have the RIGHT to sit on rsv to fly less, in order please the company and their staffing needs. I remember during the crew room visits how the union were supposedly against forced upgrades but here they are facilitating things for the company once again while throwing FO’s on rsv under the bus. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but a fair deal in this pilot climate? If you are a pilot and think that you got a W with these LOA’s, well good for you… but have you guys seen what the other leading regionals are doing? Sam when do you flow again? :confused:
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So when does all this start? Do we have to vote on it?
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Originally Posted by havick206
(Post 2589162)
I see the brains trust is put in full force today.
Screw you havick. I was getting the info 2nd hand and made that pretty clear. A little busy today making dreams come true for 76 people at a time. For their benefit and guys lower on seniority, I look forward to the PP’s being gone. They worked for it and deserve the flow in the coming months but it has been a divisive tool inserted in the seniority list. While the PP and others bash the NH for getting cash and wages and sounding indignant, I won’t miss the stories of walking 6 miles in the snow to get to school. |
Originally Posted by havick206
(Post 2589162)
I see the brains trust is put in full force today.
For their benefit and guys lower on seniority, I look forward to the PP’s being gone. They worked for it and deserve the flow in the coming months but it has been a divisive tool inserted in the seniority list. While the PP and others bash the NH for getting cash and wages and sounding indignant, I won’t miss the stories of walking 6 miles in the snow to get to school. 2 engine taxi, APU on. |
Originally Posted by ytumama
(Post 2589433)
So when does all this start? Do we have to vote on it?
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Originally Posted by mketch11
(Post 2589417)
I may be way off base here, but it feels like these LOAs benefit (second to the company) those with one foot out of the door to AA, which I assume are a large portion on the folks who came up with this deal.
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Originally Posted by Inop2
(Post 2589446)
Done deal. No vote on this.
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Originally Posted by ytumama
(Post 2589455)
OK, so if selected on the last bid you start getting paid CA pay now? Or is it only for the new vacancy bids?
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Originally Posted by Inop2
(Post 2589445)
Screw you havick. I was getting the info 2nd hand and made that pretty clear. A little busy today making dreams come true.
For their benefit and guys lower on seniority, I look forward to the PP’s being gone. They worked for it and deserve the flow in the coming months but it has been a divisive tool inserted in the seniority list. While the PP and others bash the NH for getting cash and wages and sounding indignant, I won’t miss the stories of walking 6 miles in the snow to get to school. 2 engine taxi, APU on. |
Originally Posted by wiz5422
(Post 2589060)
You received your sign on bonus at the expense of everyone senior to you....most of the remainder of the protected pilots have been screwed over by the company for the past 2 years while all the new hires have cashed in with big bonuses, short reserve time and quick upgrades. Be thankful you didn't have to start out at $27 an hour, 3 years reserve, 8 year upgrade, and multiple base closures and displacements.
Now you get to upgrade and make CA pay day 1, and flow faster to AA. |
Originally Posted by wiz5422
(Post 2589060)
You received your sign on bonus at the expense of everyone senior to you....most of the remainder of the protected pilots have been screwed over by the company for the past 6.5 years while all the new hires have cashed in with big bonuses, short reserve time and quick upgrades. Be thankful you didn't have to start out at $27 an hour, 3 years reserve, 8 year upgrade, and multiple base closures and displacements.
Now you get to upgrade and make CA pay day 1, and flow faster to AA. |
I'm sure management loves seeing the Old Guard telling new hires to assume the position like they did for years instead of pushing for meaningful improvements.
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Originally Posted by ENH017
(Post 2589477)
I'm sure management loves seeing the Old Guard telling new hires to assume the position like they did for years instead of pushing for meaningful improvements.
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Originally Posted by ENH017
(Post 2589477)
I'm sure management loves seeing the Old Guard telling new hires to assume the position like they did for years instead of pushing for meaningful improvements.
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Originally Posted by SkylineAviation
(Post 2589482)
Lol! Assuming the position like how we voted no under the threat of Comair II. Or voiced our opinion and asked the union to pull the reserve loa just last year. Or how about the reps, many of which are protected pilots that’s scored those retention bonuses & upgrade bonuses that you got. Those guys your talking about? Oh, most of which are the “old guard” who “assumed the position”
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Originally Posted by mdot
(Post 2589490)
It's sort of like a bell curve. The red circled pilots got to keep their compensation. The new hires get bonuses all day long. Plus immediate upgrade. The PPs got screwed to start out with. Concessionary contract, vacation stolen. And now finally we get something positive (that happens to benefit EVERYONE on property) and people are *****ing. It's not surprising obviously, but it's unfortunate.
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Originally Posted by mdot
(Post 2589490)
It's sort of like a bell curve. The red circled pilots got to keep their compensation. The new hires get bonuses all day long. Plus immediate upgrade. The PPs got screwed to start out with. Concessionary contract, vacation stolen. And now finally we get something positive (that happens to benefit EVERYONE on property) and people are *****ing. It's not surprising obviously, but it's unfortunate.
And just because it’s positive doesn’t make it right. Like we are supposed to be happy about getting crumbs when we could have had a whole meal? Maybe this group is just too accustomed to being shat on that anything positive must be praised regardless of what is given up in the long term. |
Originally Posted by mdot
(Post 2589468)
Thank you. This is the post to end this thread.
With that said I am happy for the PP’s. |
I'm relieved to see negotiations concluded for now without slowing the flow for other than protected pilots. Nothing here is going to get more people in the door either, which will shrink classes once the RTP and cadet pipelines clear out, and provide more leverage when the literally thousands of '16-'17 hires want to upgrade and need FOs to fly with.
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I'm voting no.
Oh wait.....never mind. |
Originally Posted by mketch11
(Post 2589497)
How does it benefit the lifers?
And just because it’s positive doesn’t make it right. Like we are supposed to be happy about getting crumbs when we could have had a whole meal? Maybe this group is just too accustomed to being shat on that anything positive must be praised regardless of what is given up in the long term. The only thing that ****es me off about this loa is the forced flying of higher time FOs to push them to a 1000 hours. This was a direct attack on them and their QOL. I'm shocked by that aspect of the loa. |
With being here 2 years and seeing double the seniority behind me, it is interesting the Protected Pilots are getting so much at the expense of over half the pilots on the roster. I realize a lot of the MEC is about to flow and about time to clear the cobwebs but with well over half the list here less than 2 years i dont want to hear about the protected pilots 8 years on reserve or any other violins they wanna play. I want pay and qol, irregardless of them and the contract they all voted in thats a complete joke.
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I hope everyone realizes this was at least some gains for what would have been a self correcting situation when the wave of 2016 FO’s got their CA mins in 3-6 months.
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Originally Posted by Pedro4President
(Post 2589044)
Wait were you wanting to burn it down when as a NH you got a 20k bonus plus base salary increases when The protected pilots got hardly anything. Your increase in compensation was 20x more than the protected pilots.
I have been saying this continually that at Envoy we have winners and losers. It sucks that this time you drew the short straw. Totally agree with this view point of yours Pedro4President. I’m not a PP but to me, they deserve any gains they can get given the beatings they took. Think of the guys that voted NO and essentially got ran over by their peers. NH (within the last two years) shouldn’t even be whining about these improvements announced today. Again, there will be winners and losers, there will likely not be a time when everybody wins (unless you’re living that suburban life where everyone gets a medal). Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by dothisbeasa
(Post 2589047)
Maybe instead of screwing the majority of the pilot group over for 4 more flow slots they could have said no, give some QOL and a pay raise and then they’red be a long line out the door to be here, and they could up the flow organically.
People, please be realistic. Firstly, the company had no compelling reason to come to the table. This could have gone to arbitration and well 18 months later we would have seen some minuscule gain. In the company eyes, there’s no real problem other than, a CA shortage. Attrition is not a true issue despite what people may allege on these forums, people are staying here and the company knows that. Until there’s no longer a line of people begging for an interview here, we likely won’t see the changes in pay you’re advocating for. An improvement in flow furthers the company’s narrative for recruiting -FLOW- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by highfarfast
(Post 2589054)
I m a 600 hourish FO that likes the new rules regarding fo flying. I dont bid reserve but i do value paid time with my family more than speeding to 1000 hours.
The one question i dont see answered, if i m displaced under this provision, can i pick up ot at premium on those days? Regarding the flow settlement... Feel like we could have gotten more but i m not losing sleep over it. Still not expecting to wait arround for flow. Yes. The new LOA will allow the pick up of OT when being displaced for the reason of First Officer Advancement Program. You also cannot be reassigned therefore, you can sit at home on your behind and do nothing during the displacement period all while being payed as if you worked the trip. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
I think we have to understand something here about the new LOA's...
This was not a negotiation looking for better flow, pay,reserve or qol. We had two grievances in place, one regarding flow violation for the protected pilots and another for contract violation regarding the DEC... In regards to the flow, if you are not a PP then this grievance was not meant to help you in any way so, any improvement that you may have gotten with this then if I were you I would take it as a win. The Union had to give something small that only affects a few for a small period of time in order to help 580 pilots. The company needed more captains and this was the solution the union came up with, im sorry for the guys with 800+hrs, you knew it was just a matter of time your number came up!!! In regards to the DEC, if you are a captain already or you are not near the upgrade requirement then this grivence was not meant for you. It doesn't affect you or help you in any way. If I were you guys I would take it for what this is, its a settlement between the company and the union to drop the grivances. its not and should not be seen as an attempt of a contract improvement, that's why we dont get to vote! Hopefully that will come by the end of the year... |
Originally Posted by RomeoBravo
(Post 2589598)
People, please be realistic. Firstly, the company had no compelling reason to come to the table. This could have gone to arbitration and well 18 months later we would have seen some minuscule gain. In the company eyes, there’s no real problem other than, a CA shortage. Attrition is not a true issue despite what people may allege on these forums, people are staying here and the company knows that. Until there’s no longer a line of people begging for an interview here, we likely won’t see the changes in pay you’re advocating for. An improvement in flow furthers the company’s narrative for recruiting -FLOW-
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I agree that the increased flow SEEMS to benefit most but the lifers, but those guys paid as well. And I think there could have still been other improvements. And there is not one FO YET (well maybe E175 spoke for all and he just made it) that has said they wanted “assistance” to get more flight time to upgrade. |
So I wonder if this 50 hours of IOE can be waived for the traditional 25 hrs. I do not want to be sitting with an IOE check airman for 50 hrs, fly 6 day trips and being at the mercy of the training department not knowing when I'll be scheduled to fly next. I'd rather be on reserve where I know when I can be used. If I'm ready by 25 hours then I'm ready, I don't see the use of prolonging it any longer. Plus I'll have less time now to consolidate given that IOE doesn't count towards consolidation.
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Who are the “protected pilots”?
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Sam Pool Email
Originally Posted by NoValueAviator
(Post 2589506)
Nothing here is going to get more people in the door either, which will shrink classes once the RTP and cadet pipelines clear out, and provide more leverage when the literally thousands of '16-'17 hires want to upgrade and need FOs to fly with.
These LOA’s dealing with FO Advancement, and CA Pay, etc are temporary, expires in about 2 years if I read it correctly. The not so good part only affects those FOs in the 800-950hr range who will get additional flying for what 2-3 months???? As for getting NH in the door: 1. Plenty of regular non cadet CFIs in Envoy pilot recruitment pool. Company slowed regular FO hiring down to focus more on eligible DECs /Street CAs onboarding to resolve a Self induced CA shortage need. Which caused them to violate the contract and meter the flow and get in a bind. 2. Thanks to American Airline Cadet program, $100K loan for flight training costs & job placement at WO, Plus the flow, FO pilot pool for Envoy & WO in the future will not be problem. FWIW, many of you are need to also pay attention to the market. Oil prices have gone UP yes UP 40% in 1yr this = major cost= major hit on profits= lower margins= cost constraints due to unhappy shareholders= no pay raise some of u think is available to be granted now, now , now. Go watch the SOTA town hall. Contentious scene between another labor group and Robert/Doug. They are tight on the purse strings. That is for certain. But it won’t effect recruiting as droves are in the pipeline waiting at the gates. |
Sam Pool Email
Originally Posted by Jetunderwing
(Post 2589533)
With being here 2 years and seeing double the seniority behind me, it is interesting the Protected Pilots are getting so much at the expense of over half the pilots on the roster. I realize a lot of the MEC is about to flow and about time to clear the cobwebs but with well over half the list here less than 2 years i dont want to hear about the protected pilots 8 years on reserve or any other violins they wanna play. I want pay and qol, irregardless of them and the contract they all voted in thats a complete joke.
Sorry at the expense of half the pilots on roster? Let’s be clear with facts: The 800-950hr FOs who decide to hide out on Reserve and not fly to avoid Vacancy /Displacement or the in-between Standing Vacancy are the ones disadvantaged. These folks are the ones the company would like to nudge into upgrading. These pilots (800-950 hrs FOs )are given added flying if they DECIDE to bid reserve (in attempt to avoid flying). Having that in the settlement hedges the company and helps the company stabilize projections for staffing needs, blocks, flows, aircraft, etc. Not agreeing or disagreeing., just stating the bigger picture for awareness. |
For all those FOs that think the flow is UNFAIR how about we make it fair. How about you flow at the same length of time the PP pilots flow? Is it fair that you flow in 5.5-7 years when they flowed in 8-12 years?? Perspective people.
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Originally Posted by Pedro4President
(Post 2589690)
For all those FOs that think the flow is UNFAIR how about we make it fair. How about you flow at the same length of time the PP pilots flow? Is it fair that you flow in 5.5-7 years when they flowed in 8-12 years?? Perspective people.
Any FO that feels they aren't getting what they're entitled to is a Generation Z toddler that needs to take a hard look at how well-set they are to make an amazing career happen (and read up on some industry history). I would definitely consider these recent improvements a win. They weren't intended to benefit the FO group, but many FOs will benefit from them soon enough when they take a CA vacancy and get the immediate pay raise and when getting sent to LGA (if they even have to) becomes much more reasonable with the hotels and positive space to/from. This is good news, which is better than bad news. |
Originally Posted by Bassman1985
(Post 2589466)
Good question as I am currently in upgrade training and since IOE is now 50 hours, if I still have to wait for that CA raise, I’ll be ready to picket our reps.
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Originally Posted by AeroEnvoy
(Post 2589638)
So I wonder if this 50 hours of IOE can be waived for the traditional 25 hrs. I do not want to be sitting with an IOE check airman for 50 hrs, fly 6 day trips and being at the mercy of the training department not knowing when I'll be scheduled to fly next. I'd rather be on reserve where I know when I can be used. If I'm ready by 25 hours then I'm ready, I don't see the use of prolonging it any longer. Plus I'll have less time now to consolidate given that IOE doesn't count towards consolidation.
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