Cool story, bro...; "Before start checklist...!"

Yeah FOs lets make our flow 8-12 years so that we can make everything nice and FAIR for everyone. Since PP had it bad why don’t we make it bad for the rest, thats fair right?
and you want to talk about perspective? Dude... You should stick with the, there are winners and losers rant.

So tired of the argument that I’m supposed to be ok with being crapped on just because someone else was crapped on long before me. 12 year flow all around would be fair? Guess what, if the outlook of the industry was similar to when you decided to stick it out at Eagle, then I would never have chosen this career. The 5 year flow is the only reason I’m an airline pilot. I would have taken a different line of work if retirements weren’t going through the roof, but somehow I’m supposed to pay reparations for what someone else’s generation did at this company like I had a say. Like telling women to stop complaining about sexual harassment because at least they get to vote. Stop living in the past and try to make this a better job while the times are conducive to gains.

Your flow time just increased by 3-5 months. Do you not see that??

You win the Internet for the day! :D

I saw 3-4, and I’m not sure it’s a gain if it’s correcting a flow violation, it should have been that way already. More of a Nuetral outcome on that minus the guys who already left who were hosed.

Everyone saw and read three to four months, but the reality is three to five months.

My flow date moved up 4 and possibly 5 months.

Please show your math working based on the LOA how your flow just increased. Are you sure you didn’t mean decrease by 3-5 months?

While I generally feel this was a positive for the PP’s and soon to upgrade FO’s I must admit I hate the argument of “well I went through hell so you should be grateful you didn’t and just shut the hell up”. This is a thinly veiled excuse for you choosing to stay in an environment that wasn’t friendly to you. I would not be here right now if the advertised flow was 8 years, plain and simple. I switched careers to come to this for the very fact the time to majors was supposed to come way down.

Anyway, I appreciate that you stuck it out, I wouldn’t have that’s for sure, but please don’t project your frustration for having to do it on those that are fighting for the betterment of all the pilots.

Remember it’s also the low time guys, older guys switching careers and the people that didn’t slug it out through the crap that are pushing you up and out of here.

Much respect all around and hopefully this isn’t taken personally.

Is the ALPA flow sheet updated?

There's a fundamental misunderstanding here I think. Envoy isn't competing with American Eagle in 2008 to attract pilots, it's competing with Endeavor, Republic, etc. in 2018. It will ultimately need to offer a competitive package, regardless of whether anyone in the pilot group feels that new FO's should be punished so they "can know what it's like."

There is one group that is harmed by these LOAs. The pilots that are about 700-950 that don't want to upgrade out of base. Everyone else it's a win all around. More CAs on the list means more FOs flying to build time. More CAs on the list means other CAs relative seniority increases and more lines to choose from. More flow NOW benefits everyone that intends to flow.

What are you guys not getting? Me or no one I know feels that it should suck for you cause it sucked for us. I’m glad you all got money & better opportunities. What me & others are saying is stop complaining and whining. This helps EVERYONE on property flow faster. Sorry you can’t sit rsv longer delaying upgrade but that’s a rather minuscule problem for some vs the larger picture of getting the PP & everyone out quicker to AA.

The company doesn’t see a need to raise anything (pay,QoL,etc.) if there is a pool of applicants waiting for a class date. This was not a contract negotiation.

Most, if not all, PP’s want better things for the NH’s and guys on property. Regardless of their history with the company. I strongly recommend all you guys post-PP to get very active with union volunteering. You guys will be replacing all the current guys soon!

Wow. The insanity of it all. No one is advocating we got crapped on so you should get crapped on too. Never has a single pilot group got so much and claims to be getting the short end of the stick so often. What punishment have you received??? 20k bonus, third year FO pay, low reserve time, sky rocketing seniority number, 175 (for some), CA pay when awarded the upgrade, unlimited commuter hotels for three months, A12 passes, FO retention bonuses, 5-7 year flow...... come on!!!! What else do you want?? The PP group got a few thousand dollars and that's it. The PP group has received NOTHING that you have not received. Yet you continue to get all the benefits of the current market.

^^^THIS^^^

That excuse doesn’t really hold water anymore, maybe 6 months ago yes I would agree. The guys in that hour range can already hold any base or within one bid cycle which the loa provides positive space and commuter hotels for. By the time they finish training they probably won’t even see lga. The only ones really complaining are the ones holding out for DFW 175 and instead displaced to LGA in turn they can bid back to dfw anyway still on the 145. Not to mention they will get CA rates 3-4 months earlier than they otherwise would have and also go back to 175 long term when they can hold it.

Exactly right.

The debate of all this is the one’s who got the most are stomping their feet cause for the 1st time they didn’t get the most out of the deal. In reality it helps EVERYONE move faster. It was aimed at a remedy for the PP who were the one’s actually harmed & grievances filed over.

I saw this question several pages back but not sure anybody knew. As a point of clarification...if you were already awarded the CA upgrade, does the CA pay rate take affect from the date of the agreement, or not until the next bid? Thanks.

Well, to your point several pages back there was just that occurring, stating that because they battled through it we should just be happy.

Again, I generally fee this was a good move for everyone and I’m happy it got passed.

Anyway, congratulations to all and again much respect, I am officially out of this thread. ✌️

Still waiting fo find out an answer in that specifically.

In the meantime this loa does not negate the street ca grievance currently in.

I got an answer from the negotiating committee. No FO already awarded CA will receive CA pay until the NEXT bid.

I’m happy for a 3-5 month bump in my flow date. ****ty that I can’t even hide on reserve now so I’m not forced to upgrade. Happy that at least, when they send my ass to lagarbage I get hotels. Still a ****ty two leg commute but I guess the plaza and A12 passes aren’t SOO bad. But I get some more money once I’m awarded CA. Not terrible. Still think that for the amount leverage we had, this fell short.

Can everyone stop whining about how the PPs were crapped on. Sorry the NHs don’t get to experience the same stuff you did, but that’s because most of them were still in high school. Everyone in this industry knows it’s all a timing game. That’s why those 200 or so lifers on the top of seniority list didn’t go to dAAdy. Cause it was a different time. You guys came in at a bad time. I mean we are talking 5years post 9/11. Don’t tell me you didn’t think it would have a been a crap ride. Some of you probably are the same ones that got hired with 300 hrs. And in ten years when you’re a 777 capt and legislators change the 1500hr rule, you’ll be sitting pretty. It’s all timing and you guys just happened to miss the mark.

Classy. There’s a whole batch of guys who’ll be sitting in class getting FO pay when they could have been getting CA pay had that section of the LOA been worded better...

Yes but withholding rules still apply and there’s another grievance in specifically covering this for backpay due to street CA’s hired outside the vacancy bid in Jan that went of training immediately that this loa doesn’t negate or close out.

To put things into context, what rough seniority number are you right now? You probably can hold DFW (or any other base) right now if your avoiding flying to upgrade.

"Should have"?

You sound like a child.

I hear XJT has like an 11yr upgrade time. In case any of our pilots want to avoid being forced to upgrade.

You can check your pay rate by looking at your “employee profile.” There’s a button/link for that towards the top of the my.envoyair main page. No longer listed on epays.

Probably sitting next to a guy with a month on property making CA pay. Way to go amature negotiators! Another loophole because you don’t understand legal language or worse don’t care.

Thanks for the help!

Amatures!!

Usually it’s a good thing, lots of shakey profile camera work.

Flow should be a plan B, not a plan A like most here are thinking.

PP are holding for Flow, because they are close to go. Most are in the early 30s and will have a great career. When the last Envoy NH flow will be around 3,000-5,000 numbers below the last PP. Those saying the PP had bad timing are wrong. Maybe a 23yr old will flow at 28-29, but will follow that PP for around 25-30 yrs.

28 + 30 = 58 before you get that PP position in AA.

Any new hire should be flying their butt off, get the upgrade and start looking for a job somewhere else. Anyone hiding on reserve is doing it wrong.

Best post so far! Lol

Doesn’t help the lifers at all.

In my opinion, the settlement and LOAs were a pragmatic surrender. I was disappointed at how weak the remedy was, as an additional 4 flows/month is not enough. The pattern of the company violating the contract continues.

Everyone junior to a flowing pilot will benefit from slightly accelerated flow and moving up in seniority and less stagnation (This helps even junior lifers, but not the senior lifers).

I know pilots who have waited over a year from captain award to receiving captain pay, due to no fault of their own. They were at the mercy of the company. I am glad this was remedied for the new guys so they will have it better than those before them.

There is a lot of bickering on this forum. It's great to be angry, but we need pilot unity. THE UNION IS ONLY AS STRONG AS ITS MEMBERS. If you are angry or want to make things better in the future, PLEASE GET INVOLVED. Attend union meetings. Vote in ALL UNION ELECTIONS, no matter how minor you think they are. Instead of whining about the guys who have "one foot out the door," get involved and run in the next election for your local LEC status rep position (once you are off probation). Start a recall of your reps if you think you can do it better. Contact your reps and direct them to recall the negotiating committee. Volunteer for the Strategic Planning Committee. Volunteer for the negotiating committee. The union especially needs junior pilots who will likely be around for the next 3-10 years.

I would love to see all this bickering and anger redirected into productive union activity.

Give me a break. The union works for the company. I want my dues back.

Good luck with getting your dues back.

If you don't like the current union leadership, organize a recall campaign.

I emailed pay before I read this, and they said they have not gotten guidance on this issue exactly, and would advise. To me it seems that another vacancy bid is imminent, because right now there is no ‘standing vacancy’s’ and the company will be once again in violation by training / paying DECs.

I emailed travel, and am awaiting their guidance on how to book A12s, where we can confirm weather E-Space is or is not available. Hopefully this means they just turn on the ‘business travel’ functionality on the NRTP.