It’s not age discrimination if that 40year old captain didn’t actively try to get an interview everyday. The flat out truth is that a lot of the “40year old CAs” that are out there are not activiely trying to get hired. You can’t just put in an app, update it once or twice a year and not have outside sources look at it. You need letters of rec., you don’t know someone there? Fine, go meet someone there. You work in the same industry for Christ sake. If you think about how hard you worked in initial training on your first 121 job, or how hard you worked for that CFI initial...if you’re not working that hard for a job at DAL, AAL, etc. you’re not going to get hired. There’s too many apps on file. If your attitude is, I have so much experience, I shouldn’t have to work that hard for a job or pay for someone to look at my app. Then sorry, but your just not going to get that call. Even in today’s rapidly changing environment.

This is the truth. And anyone here who is over 40, and says otherwise they are lying to thereself. Unfortunately you have to work a little harder than just filling out an app and paying for a subscription to airline apps. It may take a application/interview prep course and an internal letter of rec or a couple job fairs to get you that job. Also offer some help to alpa, offer to help the safety organization at your airline or work hard and become a check airmen, work with recruiting etc. this is the gods honest truth.

I hope you read this and don’t get mad, and just use it as motivation to fix up your app and get out there and get hired. The work you put in now will benifit long down the road. Everyday you wait, you’re leaving money and scenority on the table. Don’t wait for the flow. Use the flow like is state farm insurance. Good luck friends.

 

Yeah, that's not what I was asking at all. Nothing to do with my motivation or myself for that matter. Let's say, two individuals equally often update their apps for a period of one year at a major airline so both technically hit unannounced application windows. Equal education. One is younger has x amount of 121 time, no TPIC, and the other is older and has twice as much 121 time, plus 1000 121 TPIC. For this example these are the ONLY objective qualifications. Everything else for the sake of this argument is unknown and we'll treat as subjective factors. A younger applicant receives an interview invitation, the older applicant does not. Is this the case (and this case alone!) of age-based discrimination or not? All I'm asking for are the arguments for or against. And not a lecture on motivation

 

It's not.

In any other case
A. The burden of proof that someone else was chosen over you is squarely on you. Good luck with that.
B. At various times and various places different quals are preferred. Someone with a recent history of successful training might be more hireable than 15+ years in the same aircraft type of a pilot. Such is life.

 

You are saying it's not. Why not? You guys keep bringing emotions in to it. It's not about that.

A. Burden of proof requirement is not an argument pro or against. It's merely a statement that one would need to prove the claim. Sure, absolutely. But at any rate, let's say it has been proven beyond reasonable doubt. For the sake of the argument.
B. Fair point except I deliberately excluded from my hypothetical example any other factors as they are unknown and therefore subjective. But to make it clearer, let's say the sum of all unknown factors/points in each individual's application is equal.

So same question. Let's even go further in order to isolate ourselves from any prejudice of our knowledge of how the airline recruitment process works. Let's consider two applicants in some OTHER industry. Same known facts: one younger but less experienced, the other older but more experienced. Both have been pursuing this opportunity for equal amount of time, updating applications with equal frequency. All unknown factors cancel each other out. The younger applicant got an interview, the older applicant did not. (Hired or not is irrelevant). Ageism or not?

 

Insert Jim Carrey quote from the movie Dumb & Dumber:

“So your saying there’s a chance.”

 

Pilotmunk,

It’s not ageism (I hate that term, more on that latter). First of all, your hypothetical doesn’t work, there are too many variable the employer is looking at for them to be the exact same. Second, do major airline apps even have a place to put your age? Third, bottom line the company is going to hire whoever they think is the best fit and will add the most value to their company. Why would they care about age? If they did, they’d probably favor older pilots who will be less than the top wage scale. Lastly, you’re basically advocating that pilots be sorted by age and interviewed from oldest to youngest, wouldn’t that in and of itself be “ageism”? Who’s to say older is better?

Ageism...I was deplaning as a non rev passenger. I had put my bag back about 10 rows and was waiting for pax to clear before retrieving it. A woman in her early twenties also had her bag back a few rows.

She asked the FA what to do. I said “you wait for an opening and then make your move, like the game Frogger, oh you’re too young to know that game”

When we made it back to our bags, she murmured under her breath at me that she didn’t appreciate my Ageist comment. I kept my composure and didn’t say anything, but have to admit I was a bit shocked. I mean it be one thing if I insinuated that she looked older, that might be rude, but WTF?

 

Can we expect to see a Vlog of your first day of INDOC Swayne?

 

Let's say the sun is triangular and green. For the sake of the argument.
That's the whole point - Can prove age discrimination? Go ahead and sue for age discrimination.
Can't? Don't. "That person got the interview because of age/sex/ethnicity/whatever" "No, that person's background is a better fit for what we are looking for".
Exercise in futility.
Not ageism. One candidate spent enough time in the field to gain the basic experience, but probably not enough time to become engrained in doing things a certain way, so is probably more trainable and as such more desirable as a potential candidate. Boom.

 

She was late to the airplane, has no sense of humor and probably not much to look at. Her problems are just begining.

 

Thank you for the thoughtful response.

I do not advocate that candidates should be interviewed in the reverse age order. As anyone else here, I am certain, I believe that candidates should be invited to interview based on relevant qualifications first and foremost. Refusing an employment opportunity (which starts with an interview) to someone who is qualified because of the applicant's age is illegal. One can construe that the equal opportunity laws are violated if a younger applicant with lower qualifications than an older applicant is given an opportunity to interview while the older applicant is not (with all other factors being equal). It is irrelevant whether we appreciate this protection or not. It's the law. Ageism in employment is illegal.

Airline applications ask for the date of birth.

Employers absolutely can (and should) interview and hire only those who in their opinion "is the best fit and will add the most value to their company". As long as the equal opportunity laws are not violated.

I can see how my example may seem too simplistic. But that's the whole point. I want it to be as clear-cut as possible because I'm just looking for sound arguments why this may not be an example of age-based discrimination. So far I'm not seeing any. For instance, I am curious if anyone might think that an employment opportunity does not start with an interview but instead is initiated at the point of application submission. I don't know.

I guess if I am really curious I should be asking lawyers but I'm not THAT curious.