Originally Posted by Cujo665 (Post 2840834)

I’m so tempted to pull out their emails and letters demanding pay and work rule concessions 5 years ago an the onset of a pilot shortage. Instead they drove Eagle from 3200 pilots with 7 bases spanning the Western Hemisphere down to two bases with 1500 pilots.
Simply brilliant management going on there....

Instead they got what they wanted and within two months were back starting with improvements because recruiting was falling off. It’s been 4 years of piecemeal improvements. Mostly bandaids to keep enough meat in the seats.
Now they’re screwed, and it’s entirely from their own doing and making. They were told. Instead they killed the messengers.

I’d encourage everybody to not respond to their email attempt at negotiating in public. Send your ideas comments and questions to your union reps.

You are not dealing with ethical, honest or honorable managers.

Originally Posted by MD-11Loader (Post 2840862)

I don’t think anyone is falling for Tricky Ricky’s plan. Everyone knows the company crapped the bed and screwed up.

Originally Posted by Houpilot2001 (Post 2840879)

Curious where you see a plan in that email. They basically said what they always say.

(RW, PF, etc.) Sits at desk, opens form email, changes dates and subjects, uses mediocre vague verbiage, blah blah blah, keep up the good work.

Signed, disingenuous.

FUPM.

Originally Posted by NoValueAviator (Post 2841182)

There are clues in that email. Why is he talking about bonuses? We’ve seen what happens to bonuses around here with the implementation of the retention bonus where most of it is never paid, and with the performance bonus, where if we earn it the criteria changes and the prize shrinks.

Originally Posted by NoValueAviator (Post 2841182)

There are clues in that email. Why is he talking about bonuses? We’ve seen what happens to bonuses around here with the implementation of the retention bonus where most of it is never paid, and with the performance bonus, where if we earn it the criteria changes and the prize shrinks.

Originally Posted by ENH017 (Post 2841237)

From what I read, I thought "incorporating certain bonuses into payscales" meant to get rid of bonuses and increase the hourly rate to include the lost money. Which is what we should be looking for, for the reasons you stated.

Originally Posted by ENH017 (Post 2841237)

From what I read, I thought "incorporating certain bonuses into payscales" meant to get rid of bonuses and increase the hourly rate to include the lost money. Which is what we should be looking for, for the reasons you stated.

Originally Posted by NoValueAviator (Post 2841248)

Fair enough, I’m at a point with these evil people where all I have to hear is certain trigger words (such as “bonus”) and I’m at DEFCON 1.

Originally Posted by EnyFlyr (Post 2842955)

So I hear the flow is going to stop for a while due to the MD80 guys and 73 max, any truth?

Originally Posted by ENH017 (Post 2842956)

Both August classes are projected to have 0 new hires to accommodate the MD-80 pilots, iirc

Originally Posted by EnyFlyr (Post 2842959)

So when they say that the ALPA projections don't take into consideration attrition or retirements they also don't take into account this type of thing that when it happens it essentially evens out with attrition or retirements .



This is how i don't get how the company sells that 5.5 year flow for someone who started recently. It just does not add up

Originally Posted by UncreativeUser (Post 2842966)

Because their will still be movement. For the 1 month they are not taking anyone for the month of August their are still mandatory retirements and outside attrition. I would imagine this stuff happens every once in a while especially for fleet transitions


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Originally Posted by Bassman1985 (Post 2842969)

Probably gonna see it again to a lesser extent when mainline gets rid of the 190s. AA also usually doesn’t run classes in December for new hires. The beat goes on. I would be counting the days until I flow, but the interactive list hasn’t been updated since March. Might’ve moved up another month since then.

Originally Posted by EnyFlyr (Post 2842959)

So when they say that the ALPA projections don't take into consideration attrition or retirements they also don't take into account this type of thing that when it happens it essentially evens out with attrition or retirements .

This is how i don't get how the company sells that 5.5 year flow for someone who started recently. It just does not add up

Originally Posted by Cujo665 (Post 2843000)

attrition is almost as much as flow. missing a few classes only stops 1/2 the attrition. You are losing about 600 pilots a year. Soon it slows to 250-300 flowing depending on cancelled classes, but still 300 or so leaving outside flow. Do the math. They could probably advertise an even shorter flow. Their projection is valid.... and I really hate hate hate saying they're right, because 95% of the time they screw crap up.

That said, their current management is not somebody I would choose to work for go to END or PSA.

Originally Posted by highfarfast (Post 2843002)

The vast majority of that non-flow attrition you're mentioning is very junior. First year and some second year, and insignificant after that. The attrition that is junior to you doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by buddies8 (Post 2843044)

So who cares, you will flow when you flow. Theres no short cuts. Run any numbers you want. Attrition may reduce your time to flow and no attrition will keep your flow where it is. Your not getting there any sooner.

Originally Posted by Cujo665 (Post 2843020)

even at 250-300 a year it's 1375-1650 flowing in 5.5 years.
Many are still leaving to Delta, United, Fedex/UPS when over 2nd year; yes most of the 300 are junior, but you're still getting 50-100 yearly from higher up. That's another 275-550 over the same 5.5 years.

totals 1650-2200 over the 5.5 years.

their math works.

I had this same argument when they first said 5.5/2.5 over 5 years ago. Said the same thing then, the math works. I has worked fairly closely to their projection. On upgrades it worked even better with instant upgrades. That's fact. I was told I was wrong back then too by guys like you.

Originally Posted by blackbox348 (Post 2843065)

Any negotiation updates? Are we even negotiating anymore?

Originally Posted by Weekendwarrior2 (Post 2843113)

This^^ I mean it’s getting ridiculous. (Not the unions fault), but just a half a** email from RW not explaining anything.

Originally Posted by Weekendwarrior2 (Post 2843113)

This^^ I mean it’s getting ridiculous. (Not the unions fault), but just a half a** email from RW not explaining anything.

Originally Posted by Houpilot2001 (Post 2843137)

Agree, it's been 2 weeks since the AIP was signed. Hope to hear something soon but not holding my breath. Hopefully some light will be shed after today's PUB event and MEC meetings.

FUPM

Originally Posted by highfarfast (Post 2843082)

Some of your numbers are off. For one, unless the company does something drastically different than it historically does, it will flow well under 200 next year.

Originally Posted by Cujo665 (Post 2843223)

You might need to explain that.... just a little

Originally Posted by Tellheritwasntu (Post 2843234)

Sometime next year, approximately January, flow drops to 15 a month for roughly 10 months and then resumes at a rate of ~21/mo after that at current staffing levels. Do the math and best case scenario is less than 200 next year (unless something drastically changes).

Originally Posted by ERAUAV8TR (Post 2843264)

Union will grieve once it hits 15...more waiting!!!

Originally Posted by use2fly (Post 2843306)

Grieve what? It's in the contract.

Originally Posted by ERAUAV8TR (Post 2843307)

Brah! U must be new! Why are we at 29 peeps company reneged (common theme) on 50 percent so we got an accelerated 12 (SP benefit) and increase to 29 instead of 50 percent...next group will be 35% of all AA new hire training slots, no fewer than 15 per month can be withheld by Envoy. We will not get 35 percent so grieve and get a few more...cycle continues...hopefully union doesn’t drop the ball

Originally Posted by ERAUAV8TR (Post 2843307)

Brah! U must be new! Why are we at 29 peeps company reneged (common theme) on 50 percent so we got an accelerated 12 (SP benefit) and increase to 29 instead of 50 percent...next group will be 35% of all AA new hire training slots, no fewer than 15 per month can be withheld by Envoy. We will not get 35 percent so grieve and get a few more...cycle continues...hopefully union doesn’t drop the ball

Originally Posted by moon (Post 2843314)

Might want to reread the grievance settlement... not only did they settle the protected pilots but also gave new language to the next 2 groups.

Originally Posted by Cujo665 (Post 2843223)

You might need to explain that.... just a little...

Originally Posted by Tellheritwasntu (Post 2843234)

Sometime next year, approximately January, flow drops to 15 a month for roughly 10 months and then resumes at a rate of ~21/mo after that at current staffing levels. Do the math and best case scenario is less than 200 next year (unless something drastically changes).

Originally Posted by ERAUAV8TR (Post 2843319)

Review the communication that came with that...says they grieve it once again when the new group approaches

Originally Posted by mketch11 (Post 2843355)

My mind continues to be blown at the naïveté of this group. The LOA gave up any chance for flow interpretations and still we have people that have no clue. Next we have people that have actually read it and think that a grievance would actually do anything. I guess technically you can file a grievance for whatever you want. In fact, I’ll file one along side that one because a $70 pay rate should really be $100 if you round up.