Why do people still go to Envoy?
 

Currently putting in apps at regionals. By the different threads here, seems as if there isn’t a single good thing about Envoy. I’m wondering why people still chose to go here? Asking the current pilots what the perk of going to Envoy is that you won’t get at another regional? Thanks.

Flow, who knows how long it'll be until you get to AA if you get hired today but its definitely longer than most people should be getting hired at the major the traditional way. If you want to get to AA specifically, the majority of civilian new hires right now come from one of the wholly-owneds. (This isn't even really an Envoy perk, see PSA/Piedmont)

Upgrade, we're literally forcing FOs to the captain seat when they reach FAA minimum times for upgrade. That sounds like a fast upgrade but also keep in mind reserve times vary and many mid-seniority FOs complain about "no man's land" where you're too senior to get called out to fly, but too junior to hold a line. This sounds nice if you're trying to not work, but keep in mind reserve take home pay is about 1900-2300 per month.

I've heard from other regional pilots that our travel benefits are slightly better than the usual regional airline?

Outside of that I really don't know why you would look at Envoy at the moment. Every base we fly out of has other carriers with more competitive pay and better QoL contracts.

“I’m 24 and I’m a First Officer on the 175”

This is the main thing Envoy offers new hires currently.

We are not forcing all FO’s anymore. Had 17 I think didn’t get forced this last one.

To be honest, our travel benefits are hard to use. With AA always going oversold it can be a real pain to us domestically.

Unless you end up in an all 145 class

Recruiting will send you a microfiber cloth for cleaning your aviator sunglasses. The cloth will have a full-color image of an Eagle 175 that you will definitely be awarded if you get hired at Envoy.

See the "future of Envoy is any idiot from ATP" theory.

Coming to Envoy
 

Coming to Envoy so that I use my sign on bonus to buy a Tesla. :D Then maybe sometimes be behind on rent. :)

Just kidding

Why do people still go to Envoy?
 

Fact! Doug has gone on record numerous time to say he would prefer no airline offer standby travel benefits. Has stated in a nutshell that to be competitive it is offered, but that employees now entitled to it now, but should not. That none-rev/standby travel is an incredible benefit to have, that other industries don't offer this to their employees. He even went on to talk about his banker friend being shocked we get such benefits still today.

AA is one of the biggest airline in the world that Over sells flights, It is strategic. They rather offer a large sum’s of monetary credit to paying passengers.

The above is statement by [MENTION=72905]Cyio[/MENTION] is factual!

Flight Benefits do sound really good on paper. It draws many cadets to Envoy and PSA. The value of these benefits are strategically being degraded fast. Forcing crew members to move in base. Load factor levels are increasing.

Let's not forget about last minute DH’s!

Hub to Hub is terrible.

Cadets that live in big cities, I personally would stop bragging to your parents about giving them AA travel benefits as well. Toilet paper is more useful!

The only thing I find useful is flying relatives that live near podunk airports served by us. Trying to fly hub to hub you might as well start walking

People generally come to Envoy because they simply don't know any better.

There are some who Envoy serves a specific purpose (non-current military, rotor transition, Expressjet 6 year FOs), but the vast majority of cadets and street hires only know Envoy has flow and more money than they make as a CFI, barely.

Most first year FOs have no clue about how bad our contract is compared to other regionals. They thought Envoy now was better than Republic or Endeavor in 6 months. They don't realize until it is too late that pay, QOL, and career progression are better at many other places.

This thread is still relevant.

Steer clear of Envoy. Go to PSA and get paid the most, with the most flexible schedules. Unless you really want to fly the 145 out of La Guardia.

Maybe because live close to DFW and flow.
I am considering a come back after 5 years and Envoy could be a good option since I live 40 minutes away from DFW.
Any updates on current hiring, training backup, equipment out of training, bases for new hires? Training is AQP now I heard, is it good?
Thanks!

Training isn't good. Probably one of the weakest training departments in the regionals. No line pilots teaching, all PSI's which come from wildly different backgrounds and never flew the 145/175, let alone at Envoy. You won't get DFW unless you're a cadet CFI.

145 LGA/JFK. Plan on it.

I did initial on the 175 almost a year ago and it wasn't that bad. I've heard the weaker instructors are on the 145.

Alpa gave away only pilots on seniority can teach in sims

It is very much hit and miss. Mostly miss. The first lessons in procedure trainers and sims are all professional sim instructor. Some with a lot of experience some very little. Might or probably not actually flown the plane, but certainly not for Envoy.

Initial seniority in class is cadets, then 121 by time and then age.

Again very much hit or miss what is offered and composition of the class.

If you come back, and have 1000 hours of 121 time, you will be left seat on the 145 commuting to LGA for a special level of hell that is Envoy reserve. It will probably take you a year and a half just to be the bottom guy on the reserve list in DFW.

Go to Skywest... at least they will pay you for your previous time.

100% lies. As usual from you.

Training is fine. You won't fail because of it. Most sims are still with line guys teaching. And they will follow the AQP LOA if you fall behind. If you can't make it through, it's 100% all on you.

False

Also False.

It's basically a self study program. If you've had professional training on a jet anywhere else, it will be abhorrent. If you don't know better, it's just what's normal at envoy, like battered woman syndrome.

I may not have made clear that the first procedure trainer lessons and first sim lessons, about six each are PSI. The last two of both are Envoy line qualified guys that will TRY to iron out what was not covered and reinforced by the PSIs.

I wouldn’t call anything we do here “training.” Ground consists of CBTs where Microsoft Sam reads the airplanes manual to you, reading powerpoints out loud in class and practicing (not learning) things in the sim/procedure trainer. Maybe they train you a little if you’re weak on stuff? I would say it compared unfavorably to most of my part 61 training, but the checking events were also much easier than my part 61 rides.

I have never struggled with aviation related training but showing up to the procedure trainer and having only memorized the flows as they are presented in the manual was embarrassing. Totally inadequate. Learned to run the jet from YouTube.

While I feel most get through the program here it certainly isn’t the best around. I think if the general public could sit in on our program, they would be nervous. We definitely have a “learn it on the line” mentality.

Again most get through and we have a great safety record so it must work, I just wouldn’t call it hard core training.

Wow, that's crazy!
When you say "most" get through, how many don't? Based on what is being said about how poor the training is, then I guess the learning happens during IOE which lasts probably way longer than the min 25-30 hours?

A buddy of mine was done with his 30 hours of IOE, since he wasn't ready at that point he failed IOE. He did get additional time for it but had to go back within 6 months to do another MV and LOE in the sim.

From my three long term training events at Envoy, in my classes, I know of two that did not make it through the type ride and one that got EXTENSIVE additional time in IOE before being washed out. One that didn’t make it through the type ride was attitude. He expected everything to be spoon fed.

I also know of several that got additional time. At least one quite a bit. But he was working hard to stay with the program. And he made it through. Your attitude and work ethic is important.

One thing I will say, and I have said it quite a few time here.

Depending on how you were hired, you may or may not have had a tech interview and most didn’t do any kind of flight eval. Make sure you are thoroughly IFR proficient. The training program wasn’t designed to get people up to speed. You have to be at that point when you start. Not saying you need to understand kets and FMS systems, but you need to be able to fly an IFR flight with out help. And if you haven’t used Jepp charts, you need to do some self study there as well.

Hard numbers are hard to quantify in this case, but I would say 15-30% don't get through on their first try. In terms of IOE, well you get 25 hours as a new hire and 50 as a new captain, which if you do the qualified upgrade program, is plenty of time. In reality it should be reversed, 50 hours for new hires and 25 for the qualified upgrades.

Anyway, not to get off track, as pitch mentioned above, I have seen Envoy go above and beyond in terms of getting people through who have a strong, positive attitude. If you need more time, tell someone, show that you are working hard, studying hard and putting in the time. If you do that, you will get through.

Its not a spoon fed course, you need to be on your game and work hard. The "firehose" analogy they have used here for years is completely true.

Wait... so he failed IOE, then was given more time and passed IOE, but the company thought another LOE was a good idea within 6 months after he went on the line? Instead of like, I dunno, right away?

No. He was placed on special tracking, as per our AQP LOA. Pretty sure every AQP program around has ST for IOE failures.
It's called R6, and it's standard across all AQP programs.

Yeah it was weird, he flew the line for a while before getting back into the sim.. then went back again for recurrent

It was weird that the company did exactly what they were required to do?
Not sure if I follow you.

Well if you fail IOE shouldnt you go have to go right back into the sim? Im not saying it is wrong or right all im saying if you think you're not good out on the line why wait months to bring u back to training?

He obviously passed another IOE and line check, and then got placed on special tracking and had to do an R6.

Not everyone on this board is management bud, I didnt know about the whole “special tracking” deal but thanks for the info

Read the contract. It ain't that hard.

I normally don’t agree with Dera but special tracking is pretty clearly spelled out in the contract.

Had i gone through it I would be familiar with it, as far as the contract goes last time I emailed ALPA with a question I got three different answers so yeahh

Some incorrect terminology is being thrown around here which is confusing things. Here is the deal, it is the same with almost every program. In the examples listed in previous posts, you are not “failing” IOE, but if you don't get it done in the prescribe time the check airman can say this person is still salvageable and may recommend extra time. This really is not that uncommon if you are coming from the CFI world flying your first jet. If you do get more then the prescribed time you get put on special tracking. All that means is that when you do finish IOE, which may just be one more trip, at the end of 6 months you will fly with a check airman who will evaluate you. Then based on how you do you either stay on special tracking or you are taken off it.

If you “fail” IOE it is something totally different, you are terminated. It does happen. I’ve heard Regionals giving some FOs 75 to 100 hours of IOE before giving up.

Not true. At envoy you could fail at 30 if still not complete or at 50 as a Captain. Doesn’t mean you’re necessarily terminated either way but then again it could be if you were a FO who had multiple issues throughout the training program. Additionally it wasn’t like if you hit 30 hours and not done it was a failure, it was if a FO had say 31 hours and didn’t complete the line check it would be considered IOE Unsat. Almost always more hours were given to complete

Almost always FO’s needed additional IOE hours?


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Ioe,
50 hours for first time upgrade capt.
New hire 25 hours ioe can go to 30hrs
Once you reach the prescribed maximum hours of ioe and have not passed the line check then a training report must be filed. Trng will decide what will happen next, but most certain you will be placed on special tracking after you have passed the additional ioe.
Dont listen to psi b.s. comply with aom-1 procedures and limitations for your aircraft and understand fmp-1 company procedures. Its your job to know this stuff.