NoValueAviator

Ran into a DEC doing a ride-along who was being screwed out of a year of longevity "at Envoy's sole discretion" despite being entitled to it based on what Envoy advertised and promised. Do not count on Envoy to act in good faith, do not trust anything they say.

Work2Live

Did they say why Envoy was shorting them? I've got 5 years' of 121 to carryover from my last job but it's from 2009. I asked the recruiter when I came down for background check and logbook verification if they had any limit on how far back they would honor prior 121 service for longevity and they told me no.

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FlyDirectBambo

Per the: "AMENDED AND RESTATED PILOT RETENTION AND BONUS PROGRAM" LOA

c. First Officers Hired After the Effective Date shall be eligible to receive
payments as follows:
i. $15,000 within 30 days after the pilot’s one-year seniority anniversary
as an Envoy First Officer, if the Envoy First Officer has the required
Qualifying Hours in the preceding 12-month period;
ii. $30,000 within 30 days of completing 950 Captain qualifying flight
hours (applicable Part 121.436 flight time for PIC qualification),
provided that they must complete the required 950 Captain
qualifying flight hours no later than four years from the pilot’s date
of hire with Envoy;
iii. $40,000 within 30 days of their one-year anniversary of completing
IOE training as an Envoy Captain if the Envoy Captain has the
required Qualifying Hours in the preceding 12-month period;
iv. $40,000 within 30 days of their two-year anniversary of completing
IOE training as an Envoy Captain if the Envoy Captain has the
required Qualifying Hours in the preceding 12-month period; and
v. $25,000 to be included in their final paycheck as an Envoy employee
if they are hired by American as a pilot while they are employed by
Envoy through flow-up.

Read this as you may. Above is in addition to what is promised per the "DIRECT ENTRY CAPTAIN (DEC) +Type
BONUS REPAYMENT AGREEMENT" we all were asked to sign as DECs.

I think this is adds up to the total of all the verbiage covering what was promised on the website wage calculator and in the new hire interview and logbook review. Feel free to respond if I've missed something.

flyboyIIII

Not sure if I read the DEC bonus repayment agreement correctly and need help. "Prior to Pilot's first day of employment with Envoy, Envoy will make a lump sum payment to Pilot of ...., LESS APPLICABLE TAX and WITHHOLDINGS." "...if Pilot resigns or is terminated for any reason at any point within 24 months..., pilot agrees to repay some or all of the PRE-TAX amount of any DEC Bonus payment paid to Pilot."

If they awarded me $100k sign on bonus and l received $70k after tax, I still have to pay the company back full $100k even though i never receive the full amount?

JohnBurke

The language that you've described makes clear that the repayable amount is the pre-tax value.

If I take one hundred dollars out of my pocket and give it to you, I'm out one hundred dollars. I don't care that you give part of it to your mother, spend part on gum balls, and drink the rest, or give some to the government. It doesn't change the amount that came out of my pocket: a hundred bucks. If we have an agreement that you learn to ride a unicycle within thirty days, or you owe me the hundred bucks, I don't care that you had to pay taxes, if if you bought a nice shirt with the money; it's still a hundred bucks that's owed, and if the agreement spells out that it's pre-tax and the full value, then that's the deal; you owe me the hundred bucks.

flyboyIIII

Good explaination, thanks! So basically Envoy uses this "tax/withholding" as a leverage of training bond. By accepting this bonus, I've gotta be blindfolded for any other job opportunities during this 24 months or over $20k in debt!

JohnBurke

No.

You enter into an agreement to repay the money, if you don't fulfill your part. Period. End of story. The tax that you pay isn't leverage. It's your problem. You owe tax, you pay it.

The airline offers you a certain amount of money. That's what comes out of their coffers. What you do with that money is your choice. Also your problem. If you don't fulfill your end, and you have to pay it back, then you have to pay it all back. They gave it to you. You have to give it back.

Call it incentive, leverage, pressure, enticement, a carrot, or whatever you will; it's the airline sweetening the deal to get you to come to work. This sweetness comes with terms, as do all contracts. It behooves anyone entering into an agreement to know the terms. You don't fly an airplane without knowing the limitations; exceed them, and there may be a price to be paid. You don't enter into a contract with the airline without knowing the terms. Violate them, and it may cost you; there is a price to be paid.

Yes, the idea is that by taking the money, you will be honorable and fulfill your end of the bargain. If you don't, then yes, it will cost you. That's the whole point of the agreement. It's not a free lunch.

The tax is a requirement of the federal government. That you are taxed on your income does not change the fact that the airline offered you the conditional bonus; if you owe the conditional bonus back for failing to abide the conditions, the airline wants its money back. All of it. Regardless of what you did with the money. Regardless of whether you gave it to the government, your ex-wife, or bought a really nice enclosure for your Goldfish, Sally.

This leaves you with choice: stay and fulfill your obligation with time in service, or pay back the money you owe for failing to fulfill your obligation. The company hopes you do the former. That's why they offered the incentive. If you choose the latter, they expect you to honor that. Otherwise, there may be legal action.

For a long time now, bad advice has circulated, "those contracts aren't enforceable." Listen to bad advice at your own risk.

Ravenwing

That’s the part that scares me. Rumor is that Envoy “usually” comes after the after tax net amount, but it’s right there in writing they can demand the full pre-tax amount back. Say one of us fails training or turns the wrong way after taking off from ORD and gets fired in the first year, they can instantly demand all their money back even if you didn’t intend to leave. The good thing is it’s pro-rated after a year.

My internet research shows that if you repay a bonus in the same calendar year, the company can, if they choose, recoup the taxes themselves through filing paperwork. If you pay it back in a different calendar year, they expect the full amount back and you need to try to get your taxes back on your tax return. Standard bonus withholding is 22% federal, 1.45% Medicare tax, 6.2% Social Security tax, plus state tax; you can file amended tax returns but Medicare and Social Security would be harder, or maybe impossible, to recover.

My gut says don’t sign it, it’s a trap. It’s tempting though. Good luck with your decision. See you in Orientation on Thursday.

Puck Hawg

Same thing is going on with people not fulfilling their student loan obligations. You sign for it, you’re responsible for it. Too many bottom feeding free loaders in this generation.

dera

The risk is, Envoy loves to fire probie pilots. Get 010 and 100 mixed up on a takeoff from ORD and boom, you're fired. Call out sick 3 times your first year, boom, you're fired. Check a bag that's a bit too heavy when non-reving and boom, you're fired.

I wouldn't call any of the above free loaders.