The useful Envoy thread
07-28-2014, 06:45 AM
#261
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: Square root of the variance and average of the variation
Posts: 1,602
Originally Posted by rickt86
If this who I'm pretty sure it is, I got this guy in for an interview a day or two,after messaging me. If anyone else is trying to interview with envoy and not getting a call and meets the requirements feel free to message me. I'll have your app pulled by recruiting.
07-28-2014, 09:52 AM
#263
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,205
I still haven't received a call from Envoy since receiving my pre-offer a week ago. Does the captains board meet other days of the week or do I have to wait til Friday to hear something?
I had to wait 2 months before entering class in 2010. If all your paperwork is done you should be in class in the next 2 weeks.
07-28-2014, 10:22 AM
#264
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: Square root of the variance and average of the variation
Posts: 1,602
Originally Posted by PilotJ3
If you didn't got the call last week, you should hear something by this Friday.
I had to wait 2 months before entering class in 2010. If all your paperwork is done you should be in class in the next 2 weeks.
I had to wait 2 months before entering class in 2010. If all your paperwork is done you should be in class in the next 2 weeks.
07-28-2014, 10:38 AM
#265
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 547
15 mins is all it takes for car insurance what's up with recruiting? Phone call from mesa and you're in. Someone is doing some serious slacking imo
If I was choosing the best regional for my personal situation given the history of the regionals and the industry in general, I would ask myself "what is my favorite color" then go with it. Probably cannot do better than that
If I was choosing the best regional for my personal situation given the history of the regionals and the industry in general, I would ask myself "what is my favorite color" then go with it. Probably cannot do better than that
07-28-2014, 10:45 AM
#266
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: Square root of the variance and average of the variation
Posts: 1,602
Originally Posted by Spoiler
15 mins is all it takes for car insurance what's up with recruiting? Phone call from mesa and you're in. Someone is doing some serious slacking imo
If I was choosing the best regional for my personal situation given the history of the regionals and the industry in general, I would ask myself "what is my favorite color" then go with it. Probably cannot do better than that
If I was choosing the best regional for my personal situation given the history of the regionals and the industry in general, I would ask myself "what is my favorite color" then go with it. Probably cannot do better than that
07-28-2014, 10:54 AM
#267
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 223
Originally Posted by Std Deviation
Mine is to exhaustively research the most conservative risk-averse option and then choose the other one. The smart choice has never worked out for me. On the other hand, I've got friends that pick the worst decision of all time (IMO), only to succeed. Some people just have a horseshoe stamped on their forehead regardless of cicumstance.
07-28-2014, 12:38 PM
#268
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Posts: 31
Originally Posted by What
12% of the Envoy seniority has bypassed flow (300ish).
12-14% of the next 650 pilots to flow have either not selected a flow decision or have declined.
650 flows at the current rate would take 3 years if everyone stayed at the airline and flowed. This would complete the 824 flow provision.
3 years from now the pilot flowing would be between Pay step 13 and 14 at the time he/she flows. By that same time period the 12% lifer group would have lost 4% due to age 65.
40 out of the top 300 are inactive and not filling any role in the airline at this time, 10 on top of that are pilots in management positions. 30 of the top 300 are flight academy instructors.
As things stand today, we have 300 pilots who have bypassed flow and are consider to be completing their 121 career at Envoy. 220 of them are active line pilots out of the 2200 ish pilots we have line qualified or in long term training. So 10% of the Envoy pilot group is considered "lifers", shrinking the airline just increases that percentage, maintaining a sizable operation decreases that percentage.
By the time the last of the 40 E-175 is delivered 25-35% of the "lifers" would have turned 65!
*I had to bounce between multiple lists, the numbers aren't 100% accurate but they are close enough to give you a good snapshot of what is actually happening here and why the sky isn't falling; why management continues to behave as it does. We are that thing that you don't like but you can't part from because when you get down to it, there is value there and the cost aren't as high. We are not Compass, most of our pilots have underwear older than Compass, but we are not the train wreck that management makes us out to be and people jump on the bandwagon because of a headline.
How many 18+ year pilots does, SKW, AWAC, ASA-EXJ, RAH, PDT, CommuteAir and PSA have and what percentage is that of their operation?
12-14% of the next 650 pilots to flow have either not selected a flow decision or have declined.
650 flows at the current rate would take 3 years if everyone stayed at the airline and flowed. This would complete the 824 flow provision.
3 years from now the pilot flowing would be between Pay step 13 and 14 at the time he/she flows. By that same time period the 12% lifer group would have lost 4% due to age 65.
40 out of the top 300 are inactive and not filling any role in the airline at this time, 10 on top of that are pilots in management positions. 30 of the top 300 are flight academy instructors.
As things stand today, we have 300 pilots who have bypassed flow and are consider to be completing their 121 career at Envoy. 220 of them are active line pilots out of the 2200 ish pilots we have line qualified or in long term training. So 10% of the Envoy pilot group is considered "lifers", shrinking the airline just increases that percentage, maintaining a sizable operation decreases that percentage.
By the time the last of the 40 E-175 is delivered 25-35% of the "lifers" would have turned 65!
*I had to bounce between multiple lists, the numbers aren't 100% accurate but they are close enough to give you a good snapshot of what is actually happening here and why the sky isn't falling; why management continues to behave as it does. We are that thing that you don't like but you can't part from because when you get down to it, there is value there and the cost aren't as high. We are not Compass, most of our pilots have underwear older than Compass, but we are not the train wreck that management makes us out to be and people jump on the bandwagon because of a headline.
How many 18+ year pilots does, SKW, AWAC, ASA-EXJ, RAH, PDT, CommuteAir and PSA have and what percentage is that of their operation?
I think the fairly large group at the senior end of our list does provide "stability" in terms of operations. Many of our group are very, very experienced. That IS a good thing but ...
I'm not sure that is what management of regional airlines cares about today. I think they are being squeezed so much on cost (let's face it, they are having to bid against one another for feed) on FFD contracts that they won't (can't??) accept the high cost of these very experienced pilots.
I've been in this industry as a regional guy since 2000. I left and returned (don't ask)... I think the dynamic of 4/12 caps and lower wages defined by Endeavor (Pinnacle bankruptcy) and to an extent PSA reflects where management wants (needs?) the current market to go.
Is this good or bad? Because of demand, cost, (new aircraft) sizes, and the fact that many of these new aircraft types are being placed on Major operating certificates (and CBAs) that this is GOOD for younger/less senior guys. My guess is the regional model MAY (not will, MAY) die in the next few years (just due to pilot demand). For junior and younger guys, that's good. You'll end up with a long career (early in your life) at your Major.
It's bad for the senior guys who MAY see the likes of Envoy shut down. Anyone who says this can't or won't happen is (IMHO) foolish ... I say this in our case because AA's starting rate is in the $40 (going up to match DL soon I think). As this place shrinks from the middle and bottom (it is already) (and slowly from the top -- due to flow), the overall cost WILL increase. At some point, the cost COULD get to the point management just shuts it down (and furloughs/terminates those guys). Anyone who watched Comair knows this CAN (not will --- but CAN) happen.
It is interesting to note that AA is perpetuating this. Expecting guys and gals in their late 40's-60's to "restart" at $40 an hour when they are making up to $100 (or more) is foolish (and that doesn't consider QOL).
We have shrunk by just shy of 1/3 in 18 mos. Most has NOT been due to flow. Flow will move another ... 500-600. Without new hires we will (and even no additional losses (not realistic) we would be in the 1500-1600 range (max)... training department, management and non-active account for over 200. Of those 1300, in the next couple years, over half will be very senior and expensive...my guess is IF that happens you will see an accelerated movement of our flying elsewhere.
Re: merger --- why is that considered an option when they can bleed us down and close. Why would they move the higher cost folks to their lower cost operation...
I don't mean to inflame. Nothing I have said or meant to say in any way should be considered to be stating the VALUE of those senior guys or the value of their experience isn't what it IS... AWESOME (and I have an incredible and sincere respect for that experience)...that said, I'm not sure management values that as much as cost. I saw guys hired at fewer than 500 hours at my first airline, upgraded at 1500 hours (no, I wasn't a 500 hour wonder; started with almost 2500)...management did and will do that again if they can keep their costs in line so as to continue their existence.
Last edited by JetPilotMan; 07-28-2014 at 12:56 PM.
07-28-2014, 01:20 PM
#269
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,940
Originally Posted by JetPilotMan
Not sure if what I'm about to post is "helpful" perspective... but here goes:
I think the fairly large group at the senior end of our list does provide "stability" in terms of operations. Many of our group are very, very experienced. That IS a good thing but ...
I'm not sure that is what management of regional airlines cares about today. I think they are being squeezed so much on cost (let's face it, they are having to bid against one another for feed) on FFD contracts that they won't (can't??) accept the high cost of these very experienced pilots.
I've been in this industry as a regional guy since 2000. I left and returned (don't ask)... I think the dynamic of 4/12 caps and lower wages defined by Endeavor (Pinnacle bankruptcy) and to an extent PSA reflects where management wants (needs?) the current market to go.
Is this good or bad? Because of demand, cost, (new aircraft) sizes, and the fact that many of these new aircraft types are being placed on Major operating certificates (and CBAs) that this is GOOD for younger/less senior guys. My guess is the regional model MAY (not will, MAY) die in the next few years (just due to pilot demand). For junior and younger guys, that's good. You'll end up with a long career (early in your life) at your Major.
It's bad for the senior guys who MAY see the likes of Envoy shut down. Anyone who says this can't or won't happen is (IMHO) foolish ... I say this in our case because AA's starting rate is in the $40 (going up to match DL soon I think). As this place shrinks from the middle and bottom (it is already) (and slowly from the top -- due to flow), the overall cost WILL increase. At some point, the cost COULD get to the point management just shuts it down (and furloughs/terminates those guys). Anyone who watched Comair knows this CAN (not will --- but CAN) happen.
It is interesting to note that AA is perpetuating this. Expecting guys and gals in their late 40's-60's to "restart" at $40 an hour when they are making up to $100 (or more) is foolish (and that doesn't consider QOL).
We have shrunk by just shy of 1/3 in 18 mos. Most has NOT been due to flow. Flow will move another ... 500-600. Without new hires we will (and even no additional losses (not realistic) we would be in the 1500-1600 range (max)... training department, management and non-active account for over 200. Of those 1300, in the next couple years, over half will be very senior and expensive...my guess is IF that happens you will see an accelerated movement of our flying elsewhere.
Re: merger --- why is that considered an option when they can bleed us down and close. Why would they move the higher cost folks to their lower cost operation...
I don't mean to inflame. Nothing I have said or meant to say in any way should be considered to be stating the VALUE of those senior guys or the value of their experience isn't what it IS... AWESOME (and I have an incredible and sincere respect for that experience)...that said, I'm not sure management values that as much as cost. I saw guys hired at fewer than 500 hours at my first airline, upgraded at 1500 hours (no, I wasn't a 500 hour wonder; started with almost 2500)...management did and will do that again if they can keep their costs in line so as to continue their existence.
I think the fairly large group at the senior end of our list does provide "stability" in terms of operations. Many of our group are very, very experienced. That IS a good thing but ...
I'm not sure that is what management of regional airlines cares about today. I think they are being squeezed so much on cost (let's face it, they are having to bid against one another for feed) on FFD contracts that they won't (can't??) accept the high cost of these very experienced pilots.
I've been in this industry as a regional guy since 2000. I left and returned (don't ask)... I think the dynamic of 4/12 caps and lower wages defined by Endeavor (Pinnacle bankruptcy) and to an extent PSA reflects where management wants (needs?) the current market to go.
Is this good or bad? Because of demand, cost, (new aircraft) sizes, and the fact that many of these new aircraft types are being placed on Major operating certificates (and CBAs) that this is GOOD for younger/less senior guys. My guess is the regional model MAY (not will, MAY) die in the next few years (just due to pilot demand). For junior and younger guys, that's good. You'll end up with a long career (early in your life) at your Major.
It's bad for the senior guys who MAY see the likes of Envoy shut down. Anyone who says this can't or won't happen is (IMHO) foolish ... I say this in our case because AA's starting rate is in the $40 (going up to match DL soon I think). As this place shrinks from the middle and bottom (it is already) (and slowly from the top -- due to flow), the overall cost WILL increase. At some point, the cost COULD get to the point management just shuts it down (and furloughs/terminates those guys). Anyone who watched Comair knows this CAN (not will --- but CAN) happen.
It is interesting to note that AA is perpetuating this. Expecting guys and gals in their late 40's-60's to "restart" at $40 an hour when they are making up to $100 (or more) is foolish (and that doesn't consider QOL).
We have shrunk by just shy of 1/3 in 18 mos. Most has NOT been due to flow. Flow will move another ... 500-600. Without new hires we will (and even no additional losses (not realistic) we would be in the 1500-1600 range (max)... training department, management and non-active account for over 200. Of those 1300, in the next couple years, over half will be very senior and expensive...my guess is IF that happens you will see an accelerated movement of our flying elsewhere.
Re: merger --- why is that considered an option when they can bleed us down and close. Why would they move the higher cost folks to their lower cost operation...
I don't mean to inflame. Nothing I have said or meant to say in any way should be considered to be stating the VALUE of those senior guys or the value of their experience isn't what it IS... AWESOME (and I have an incredible and sincere respect for that experience)...that said, I'm not sure management values that as much as cost. I saw guys hired at fewer than 500 hours at my first airline, upgraded at 1500 hours (no, I wasn't a 500 hour wonder; started with almost 2500)...management did and will do that again if they can keep their costs in line so as to continue their existence.
The problem with closing up the company though is there is a percentage of pilots who won't or can't ever come back and be able to afford to live. Those pilots are lost forever in a time where pilots are really needed but hard to find. But-- you are never going to get airline management to care about such things long term because they can only see the current quarter. That's all that matters, is the current quarter. Publicly traded companies are all myopic like that.
In my view, I think pilot unions really should consider flattening out the pay scales at the regional level. From a pilot perspective, you are probably saying "what the hell is he talking about!!" But bear with me and think about this. If new FO's were paid much higher wages, the company would have to treat the pilot group better because look how much easier it would be to start over at another airline.
I've mentioned the following on this forum several times, my guess is everyone is probably sick of hearing/seeing it but I'm convinced its the right direction for the regional industry if it must continue to exist. There are 2 questions to answer.
Should regional airlines (B scale) continue to exist?
If no, problem is basically solved.
If yes, should one expect he/she can make a career at a regional airline?
If no, then FO pay and Captain pay should be the same, flattened. Only longevity pays higher. You are forced to move up to a major or out. Hopefully there is a flow through program and the better airlines will have this. You want ALPA representing your interests.
If yes, then Captains continue to make more at the expense of FO’s, but all FO’s have a shot at making a livable career at the regional. Hopefully you can get your hands on a bigger pot of money from the major airline. You don’t want ALPA under this situation, you need an organization which truly represents your interests as a regional (B scale) pilot.
07-28-2014, 01:37 PM
#270
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 2,035
Originally Posted by tom11011
I think your analysis is accurate. Without low cost labor to balance out the higher cost labor, the cost per employee becomes non competitive. When pilots leave the company from the bottom up, it creates a real cost problem. My guess is a merger is in Envoy's future. There is just no other way to solve the problem without shuttering the company.
The problem with closing up the company though is there is a percentage of pilots who won't or can't ever come back and be able to afford to live. Those pilots are lost forever in a time where pilots are really needed but hard to find. But-- you are never going to get airline management to care about such things long term because they can only see the current quarter. That's all that matters, is the current quarter. Publicly traded companies are all myopic like that.
In my view, I think pilot unions really should consider flattening out the pay scales at the regional level. From a pilot perspective, you are probably saying "what the hell is he talking about!!" But bear with me and think about this. If new FO's were paid much higher wages, the company would have to treat the pilot group better because look how much easier it would be to start over at another airline.
I've mentioned the following on this forum several times, my guess is everyone is probably sick of hearing/seeing it but I'm convinced its the right direction for the regional industry if it must continue to exist. There are 2 questions to answer.
Should regional airlines (B scale) continue to exist?
If no, problem is basically solved.
If yes, should one expect he/she can make a career at a regional airline?
If no, then FO pay and Captain pay should be the same, flattened. Only longevity pays higher. You are forced to move up to a major or out. Hopefully there is a flow through program and the better airlines will have this. You want ALPA representing your interests.
If yes, then Captains continue to make more at the expense of FO’s, but all FO’s have a shot at making a livable career at the regional. Hopefully you can get your hands on a bigger pot of money from the major airline. You don’t want ALPA under this situation, you need an organization which truly represents your interests as a regional (B scale) pilot.
The problem with closing up the company though is there is a percentage of pilots who won't or can't ever come back and be able to afford to live. Those pilots are lost forever in a time where pilots are really needed but hard to find. But-- you are never going to get airline management to care about such things long term because they can only see the current quarter. That's all that matters, is the current quarter. Publicly traded companies are all myopic like that.
In my view, I think pilot unions really should consider flattening out the pay scales at the regional level. From a pilot perspective, you are probably saying "what the hell is he talking about!!" But bear with me and think about this. If new FO's were paid much higher wages, the company would have to treat the pilot group better because look how much easier it would be to start over at another airline.
I've mentioned the following on this forum several times, my guess is everyone is probably sick of hearing/seeing it but I'm convinced its the right direction for the regional industry if it must continue to exist. There are 2 questions to answer.
Should regional airlines (B scale) continue to exist?
If no, problem is basically solved.
If yes, should one expect he/she can make a career at a regional airline?
If no, then FO pay and Captain pay should be the same, flattened. Only longevity pays higher. You are forced to move up to a major or out. Hopefully there is a flow through program and the better airlines will have this. You want ALPA representing your interests.
If yes, then Captains continue to make more at the expense of FO’s, but all FO’s have a shot at making a livable career at the regional. Hopefully you can get your hands on a bigger pot of money from the major airline. You don’t want ALPA under this situation, you need an organization which truly represents your interests as a regional (B scale) pilot.
Geez, give it a break already... There are NO overpaid regional airline pilots period! To suggest that any professional pilot in the regionals needs to take any concessions would be laughable, if it were not so ridiculous. The only direction for pay and benefits at any regional should be up. Only someone in management, or brainwashed by management could possibly suggest otherwise!
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