Not trying to flame, but why are some of you thinking about coming to this mess we call envoy?

So thats the nuclear option. When I can find a trainer I"ll have to ask him about that. All I know is in my Eaglevoy CA bid status in ORD our participation rate is about 90%, as best I can tell, and with the last two bid runs, PBS built a schedule that was much better than my actual award, a schedule vs RSV, even though I bid 78 out of 89. I just think I must be missing something.

All I can say is welcome to the party. Hope you don't get a hangover that you'll later regret

I personally don't think PBS has a ghost of a chance of passing. Be it people who just want to say NO to everything the company passes along, to those who lose more with PBS than hard lines, to people who don't want change... I just see no way of PBS passing

PBS is a non issue - look for it to be absorbed into a new TA
Reality is this: PBS is industry standard so good luck holding out. Better - need to be crafting duty rigs to blunt the ill effects POSSIBLE if left unchecked. That is where we should be spending time

Yep. If they could negotiate duty rigs and min day pay, PBS would be wonderful.

To live in base or hopefully have an easy commute. I live near MCO. Does anyone know how the commute is from MCO to MIA?

Lots and lots of commuters on that route plus full flights in general. Lots of Envoy and AA commuters so if that's something you do give yourself plenty of backups especially on 1st year probation.

I agree with Skyline. Tons of commuters with very full flights most of the time. If it's possible to move 2 hours from MIA, I would do that and drive. Around holiday time, expect to rent a car often.

Getting to and from MIA from anywhere can be pretty tough. My first 8 months i commuted to MIA from OKC 2 leg. Was always battling other commuters trying to get everywhere out of MIA, plus the whole full flight thing since its a tourist destination and south america gateway.

On the upside you get year round Brazilian eye candy on flights between MCO and MIA.

PBS is industry standard. My last carrier went to it while I was there. The trick is having trip and duty rigs that are punitive to management if they don't abide by them. The real thing that forces management is cost...rigs do that. Otherwise, I found PBS resulted in less ability to gain extra pay but more ability to swap things around for quality of life (what's that) than we have under the current system. All that said, we don't have those rigs which would make PBS here ... well, very one sided in management's favor. I'd actually accept the pay cut (laugh) before approving PBS without rigs.

For any of you even thinking about voting yes on PBS here are a few things to consider:

Trip trading as you know it is gone. No more senior guys trips dropping into open time for everyone to have a shot at, it'll just go to the very next guy below him. By the time the system gets to the bottom the only trips left will all be 515am sign ins and 2100 finish. And the only trips left in OT are the trips you told PBS you didn't want.

Now, the senior guys have to share the pain. a line might have 3 or 4 great trips but 1 crappy 1. with PBS they get nothing but the good stuff. you want xmas off but its on wednesday, now some junior guys get to see a weekend, same with other holidays.

whats a 5% pay cut really mean. all you need is 2 conflicts per year month to month and 1 training event and your back even.

for you senior FO's, just remember you will be a junior captain before long so you have to look at it from the bottom end of the list rather than the top. Also upgrading just 1 month earlier covers a lot of months of 5% less at FO pay PBS reduces the # of CA so upgrades are now farther away.

You DTS your vacation now you are at 17 or more days off in a row. the new system will only guarantee you 13. not enough time for trips to the pacific side of the world they provide no protection if you are junior that a trip wont finish at 10pm before and 6am after you vacation week effectively making it only 11 days for vacay!!!

There are no trip or duty rigs built in to PBS system. everyone remember the 13 hr 4 day trips or 9 hr 3 day trips. its nice the company decided not to build those during the PBS test months isn't it? will they still put the same effort into it after its live?

A lot of guys don't like the unknown of what the system will do when it goes into denial mode. The way it is now, you know what your getting if you bid that line.

I think there is a decent chance we'll be voting on something other than PBS first. We'll see.

Not a chance.. It's a fact. Expect something soon. Stay tuned.

tomorrow in fact the 24th

I feel like Mason never left.

Thanks Mason.

At our current rate of upgrades PBS will likely cost FOs close to a year delay in upgrade.

PBS means less captains.

Last I checked we are waging a war of attrition with the company.

Lower staffing requirements negate our strategy, I don't know why anyone is even considering voting this in.

Line bidding is also not just more pilots required, the more upgrades result in more pilots acquiring TPIC, and even more actually leaving for other majors.

Also if they try to take another 5% from us in retaliation that will further exasperate their difficulties attracting new hires. So the effect of keeping what we have is exponentially better, when looked at from a perspective of putting pressure on the company, exerting leverage, and guys actually getting out of here for greener pastures.

Just plan ahead. Im a McO commuter and never being stuck since I moved here last year. I just lost one Flight and was able to get on the next one.

In Sept they will increase more flying from MIA and McO. It will be around 11 flights a day. We currently have a gap between 6:30pm until 10:25pm with no flights. That gap will be filled with 2 more flights and an extra flight at 11:40pm (I thinks, somewhere around that time).

Worst case, you drive around 3grs going back home. I've done it before...

Fellow pilots,

As a part of our ongoing informal discussions with management, we plan to meet today with company executives and listen to their ideas and future plans for our carrier. The MEC will then convene to discuss what was learned and decide how to move forward.

JC

Communications Chairman

Sweet. I figure at least for the first couple months I'll have to commute. And worst case I would just drive.

Jerry Glass will inevitably make another threat today to kick off the tone for any formal negotiations. When that happens, I hope our guys get up and walk out of the room.

Are you sure Jerry Glass is even there?

yes he is there

Fantastic. Brilliant.

Oh well...maybe he has softened his tone. He is after all a businessman. If tactics A are not working shrewd businessmen change up their game plan rather than keep sticking their finger in the same outlet over and over.

I'm sure he wants to succeed in some way to make himself look good as much as we want to get a deal done. The only question is if everybody will be able to meet in the middle.

That shouldn't be necessary, the pilot representatives are there at the request of the company right? Negotiations ended several weeks/months ago, there is nothing new to talk about, both sides are comfortable with the current contract negotiated in good faith, although the company is not abiding by previous promises.

I presume the pilot representatives are just going as a favor to the company because they have been invited for reasons unknown. I wouldn't expect anything new to materialize unless the company needs something or something in the industry has changed forcing a need to meet.

Well I can think of at least one reason they need to meet.... Placing the remaining jets to re fleet envoy!

By accepting your bankruptcy contract that you are operating under right now, those jets were supposed to come to you anyway right?

So your grand plan is tell the company to F off? Like it or not, we have to work with them in some way, or we're toast.

just as a reminder, AAL reported, once again, record breaking profits!!!

Supposedly. But unfortunately we find ourselves in a different situation, one that's going to require us to come to a mutual agreement. But I'm not a burn it down guy so... It's all premature anyway. We don't have any clue as to what they're gonna come up with, if anything at all!!

You've already came to a mutual agreement. You've given stuff up. You didn't get what was promised. I would think that needs to be addressed first before negotiating something new.

One thing I don't get. Why is the pilot group going so crazy about these airplanes? They don't represent any growth, just re-fleeting. Nothing changes, you still get to be a 9 year FO regardless if you get the airplanes or not.

Yeah, then it'll be 10 year FO, then 12 year FO, then 15 year FO as the ERJs are parked with no replacement. Keeping the same fleet size is a win with all the movement to AA. Why is that hard to understand?

Well since our fleet is becoming obsolete we kind of need them don't we? If I recall correctly the 145's are all to be parked by around 2020 or so. Also, new hires are going where the planes are going so if we can secure the planes, increase the flow and do it with minimal to no concessions then people will come here and the 9 year upgrade as you say will be cut in half. We still have another 700 guys to flow over in the next couple years not to mention those that get hired by other carriers aside from AA so movement will happen pretty fast but only if they get a deal done or decide to put the airplanes here anyway.

It's not the same size fleet, bigger planes mean less demand for pilots.

And ZERO planes equals ZERO demand for pilots... Not our job to bring airplanes here never the less, we find ourselves in this predicament ...

Nobody has ever said it's your job to bring airplanes anywhere. STOP overreacting like a bunch of uneducated children. Your union is doing great things on your behalf. Just wait until you have actually read details yourself and stop going off of hearsay and what somebody tells you.

If the company doesn't want to have airplanes on the property, a small requirement in order to generate revenue, that's really their business. You can't look at it like their decision to have new jets on the property is a favor to you.

How do you know? :confused: