The useful Envoy thread
08-11-2014, 10:17 AM
#671
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Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: Feito no Brasil, CA
Posts: 833
Originally Posted by Bzzt
Actually for a 2011 hire the AIP made the difference of nearly 2 years earlier to both a CA spot and an eventual position at AA. If this economy goes into a recession, or another major catastrophe happens you will be getting the 12/4 pay cap regardless, your current contract will not protect you.
Hope for the best, plan for the worst. You're doing it backwards in a way because you're expecting the best and ignoring the worst. In addition, there were a lot of assumptions in the company calculator that were better than the best best case scenario.
Considering that the company loves to ignore the contract and couple that with the cherry picked assumptions in the calculator I'd say the chances of it working the way you describe to be near zero.
08-11-2014, 10:20 AM
#672
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,219
Originally Posted by Bzzt
Actually for a 2011 hire the AIP made the difference of nearly 2 years earlier to both a CA spot and an eventual position at AA. If this economy goes into a recession, or another major catastrophe happens you will be getting the 12/4 pay cap regardless, your current contract will not protect you.
Hope for the best, plan for the worst. You're doing it backwards in a way because you're expecting the best and ignoring the worst. In addition, there were a lot of assumptions in the company calculator that were better than the best best case scenario.
Considering that the company loves to ignore the contract and couple that with the cherry picked assumptions in the calculator I'd say the chances of it working the way you describe to be near zero.
08-11-2014, 10:24 AM
#673
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Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,951
In the long run its all for the best. Hiring is going to continue to pick up, Envoy can shrink till it goes out of business. Delta has the right model anyway by bring regional flying and scope back to mainline. American will eventually lean this way too.
08-11-2014, 10:33 AM
#674
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Joined APC: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,648
Originally Posted by PilotJ3
Wrong...
When I looked at the "Upgrade projection" table that Winkley did.,,
I was showing that I would upgrade in 2016 with the AIP. Without the AIP was in the same middle between 2016 and 2017.
I'm a 2010 hired and refuse to be capped for 2 years "waiting" for my upgrade. I will not give per diem away, because food price increase. Why would I give away money for food? They can get per diem, if they give me at least 5% pay increase. We all have families and bills to pay. I do have a second job to maintain or not fancy life style.
How is that Bk TA working? They are constantly violating it. They cannot abide our current contract, how can we trust them?
Sorry Btzzz, they burn it down crowd voted No this time. While every body was happy that the BK TA passed, I said myself "we are going to be screwed in a merger situation". And that's what's happening, management knows we are a weak group. And even that we voted no, they know we won't hold the line much longer.
Voting on the Bk TA in the first attempt, was wrong. PSA made our situation worst.
I'm not willing to sell someone else future because it doesn't affect me as a grandfathered pilot.
How about if they increase our overall pay scale. Let's make it:
1st yr $30
2nd yr $35
3rd yr $45
4th yr $55
That way the company is motivated to never have a 3rd or 4th yr FO.
We know that would never happen, because pilots are self destructive. Pilots just want to fly a bigger airplane, not a bigger check. Pilots only want upgrade, not QOL while waiting for that upgrade.
Open your eyes guys, we've been played by management. Look what only 1 post have done for the last 3 days?
Have you guys even think about this? All this happened a SATURDAY!!! A day that management doesn't work.
When I looked at the "Upgrade projection" table that Winkley did.,,
I was showing that I would upgrade in 2016 with the AIP. Without the AIP was in the same middle between 2016 and 2017.
I'm a 2010 hired and refuse to be capped for 2 years "waiting" for my upgrade. I will not give per diem away, because food price increase. Why would I give away money for food? They can get per diem, if they give me at least 5% pay increase. We all have families and bills to pay. I do have a second job to maintain or not fancy life style.
How is that Bk TA working? They are constantly violating it. They cannot abide our current contract, how can we trust them?
Sorry Btzzz, they burn it down crowd voted No this time. While every body was happy that the BK TA passed, I said myself "we are going to be screwed in a merger situation". And that's what's happening, management knows we are a weak group. And even that we voted no, they know we won't hold the line much longer.
Voting on the Bk TA in the first attempt, was wrong. PSA made our situation worst.
I'm not willing to sell someone else future because it doesn't affect me as a grandfathered pilot.
How about if they increase our overall pay scale. Let's make it:
1st yr $30
2nd yr $35
3rd yr $45
4th yr $55
That way the company is motivated to never have a 3rd or 4th yr FO.
We know that would never happen, because pilots are self destructive. Pilots just want to fly a bigger airplane, not a bigger check. Pilots only want upgrade, not QOL while waiting for that upgrade.
Open your eyes guys, we've been played by management. Look what only 1 post have done for the last 3 days?
Have you guys even think about this? All this happened a SATURDAY!!! A day that management doesn't work.
Your entire argument is based off "if things go wrong I don't want to be pay capped", you will be. For this hiring wave to fall apart something catastrophic will have to happen, if something catastrophic happens we will declare bk and you'll be capped at 12/4.
It really astounds me that FOs are willing to pass up long term gains (by going to a major) over $1-2 a hour pay.
Buddies again, you wouldn't be pay capped you're grandfathered in. How many years do you have left? Is a 1% annual raise going to matter that much in your finances? If so I'm a bit worried about your ability to retire.
08-11-2014, 10:56 AM
#675
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,219
Originally Posted by PilotJ3
Wrong...
When I looked at the "Upgrade projection" table that Winkley did.,,
I was showing that I would upgrade in 2016 with the AIP. Without the AIP was in the same middle between 2016 and 2017.
I'm a 2010 hired and refuse to be capped for 2 years "waiting" for my upgrade. I will not give per diem away, because food price increase. Why would I give away money for food? They can get per diem, if they give me at least 5% pay increase. We all have families and bills to pay. I do have a second job to maintain or not fancy life style.
How is that Bk TA working? They are constantly violating it. They cannot abide our current contract, how can we trust them?
Sorry Btzzz, they burn it down crowd voted No this time. While every body was happy that the BK TA passed, I said myself "we are going to be screwed in a merger situation". And that's what's happening, management knows we are a weak group. And even that we voted no, they know we won't hold the line much longer.
Voting on the Bk TA in the first attempt, was wrong. PSA made our situation worst.
I'm not willing to sell someone else future because it doesn't affect me as a grandfathered pilot.
How about if they increase our overall pay scale. Let's make it:
1st yr $30
2nd yr $35
3rd yr $45
4th yr $55
That way the company is motivated to never have a 3rd or 4th yr FO.
We know that would never happen, because pilots are self destructive. Pilots just want to fly a bigger airplane, not a bigger check. Pilots only want upgrade, not QOL while waiting for that upgrade.
Open your eyes guys, we've been played by management. Look what only 1 post have done for the last 3 days?
Have you guys even think about this? All this happened a SATURDAY!!! A day that management doesn't work.
When I looked at the "Upgrade projection" table that Winkley did.,,
I was showing that I would upgrade in 2016 with the AIP. Without the AIP was in the same middle between 2016 and 2017.
I'm a 2010 hired and refuse to be capped for 2 years "waiting" for my upgrade. I will not give per diem away, because food price increase. Why would I give away money for food? They can get per diem, if they give me at least 5% pay increase. We all have families and bills to pay. I do have a second job to maintain or not fancy life style.
How is that Bk TA working? They are constantly violating it. They cannot abide our current contract, how can we trust them?
Sorry Btzzz, they burn it down crowd voted No this time. While every body was happy that the BK TA passed, I said myself "we are going to be screwed in a merger situation". And that's what's happening, management knows we are a weak group. And even that we voted no, they know we won't hold the line much longer.
Voting on the Bk TA in the first attempt, was wrong. PSA made our situation worst.
I'm not willing to sell someone else future because it doesn't affect me as a grandfathered pilot.
How about if they increase our overall pay scale. Let's make it:
1st yr $30
2nd yr $35
3rd yr $45
4th yr $55
That way the company is motivated to never have a 3rd or 4th yr FO.
We know that would never happen, because pilots are self destructive. Pilots just want to fly a bigger airplane, not a bigger check. Pilots only want upgrade, not QOL while waiting for that upgrade.
Open your eyes guys, we've been played by management. Look what only 1 post have done for the last 3 days?
Have you guys even think about this? All this happened a SATURDAY!!! A day that management doesn't work.
Your entire argument is based off "if things go wrong I don't want to be pay capped", you will be. For this hiring wave to fall apart something catastrophic will have to happen, if something catastrophic happens we will declare bk and you'll be capped at 12/4.
It really astounds me that FOs are willing to pass up long term gains (by going to a major) over $1-2 a hour pay.
Buddies again, you wouldn't be pay capped you're grandfathered in. How many years do you have left? Is a 1% annual raise going to matter that much in your finances? If so I'm a bit worried about your ability to retire.
Ok then, let's sign inn for PBS also. You will have less chance for a commutable line. You should had took a loan and go to Compass. If you lost 20 hrs TTOT, that means you can't sustain your family in CA by your own. While I'm basically the provider for my family.
Don't worry about my retirement. I'm doing all the correct steps towards it. Still have 38 more years before I can go and I will not make the JR guys go into a B scale.
We are the ones that have to make a change. This is the time for a change! I rather be in this situation now, than leave it to the guys coming behind us. I would not like to be in this situation if I have to pay more than 15k in a ATP. Let's make it worth, let's top whining, complaining and let's make this industry better. AA posted record profits! We are not the ones that have to keep giving them money.
The only way to move forward is get yourself out there and try to go somewhere else. That's what I'm doing and hope it will pay off. If I ever get hired somewhere, I will never come back into a AAG airline.
Listen to me, USAirways management will finish this company. They are converting it into a LCC. It's not a legacy anymore and I don't want to be part of if.
08-11-2014, 11:04 AM
#676
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Posts: 618
Originally Posted by tom11011
You have 5 posts on this website, you can't vouch for anyone 
I think its precious of you though, like watching a toddler take his first steps.
I think its precious of you though, like watching a toddler take his first steps.
08-11-2014, 11:07 AM
#677
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,648
Originally Posted by PilotJ3
No man, if things go right or wrong, we will never make it to AA. Flow is just a pilot retention tool. Ask how did it work for the guys flowing right now.
Ok then, let's sign inn for PBS also. You will have less chance for a commutable line. You should had took a loan and go to Compass. If you lost 20 hrs TTOT, that means you can't sustain your family in CA by your own. While I'm basically the provider for my family.
Don't worry about my retirement. I'm doing all the correct steps towards it. Still have 38 more years before I can go and I will not make the JR guys go into a B scale.
We are the ones that have to make a change. This is the time for a change! I rather be in this situation now, than leave it to the guys coming behind us. I would not like to be in this situation if I have to pay more than 15k in a ATP. Let's make it worth, let's top whining, complaining and let's make this industry better. AA posted record profits! We are not the ones that have to keep giving them money.
The only way to move forward is get yourself out there and try to go somewhere else. That's what I'm doing and hope it will pay off. If I ever get hired somewhere, I will never come back into a AAG airline.
Listen to me, USAirways management will finish this company. They are converting it into a LCC. It's not a legacy anymore and I don't want to be part of if.
Ok then, let's sign inn for PBS also. You will have less chance for a commutable line. You should had took a loan and go to Compass. If you lost 20 hrs TTOT, that means you can't sustain your family in CA by your own. While I'm basically the provider for my family.
Don't worry about my retirement. I'm doing all the correct steps towards it. Still have 38 more years before I can go and I will not make the JR guys go into a B scale.
We are the ones that have to make a change. This is the time for a change! I rather be in this situation now, than leave it to the guys coming behind us. I would not like to be in this situation if I have to pay more than 15k in a ATP. Let's make it worth, let's top whining, complaining and let's make this industry better. AA posted record profits! We are not the ones that have to keep giving them money.
The only way to move forward is get yourself out there and try to go somewhere else. That's what I'm doing and hope it will pay off. If I ever get hired somewhere, I will never come back into a AAG airline.
Listen to me, USAirways management will finish this company. They are converting it into a LCC. It's not a legacy anymore and I don't want to be part of if.
I'm absolutely voting no on PBS, there is no gain there, only loss. I voted no to the bk deal as well, the only reason I voted yes to the AIP is because the trade off worked well for me.
I do agree with you about AAG, APA and the other unions made a big mistake selling that merger to the creditors.
08-11-2014, 11:12 AM
#678
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,104
Eagle was going to be spun down regardless of the vote outcome. I'm surprised more don't see it. The small EMBs were going away. I used to commute on Eagle almost exclusively, met a lot of CAs that weren't going to flow because they just had 5-10 years left. You can't make them change their minds, but it's doubtful the company will even be around in its present form in 5-10 years. I still think Eagle will continue operating but it's going to be a fraction of its former self, those CAs might even become F/Os with forced downgrades.
At the regional level you have to play the game. It's cost based almost exclusively. Eagle didn't have a prayer being so top loaded. If you're not in the flow and won't flow for another couple years I would've punched out and gone to Compass with the 12 month upgrades. You're not showing anyone in management anything by hanging around working as a lifer F/O. In fact you are playing right into their hands.
The #1 objective of a regional pilot should be to GTFO. There are going to be lifers at all airlines, but don't be one of them.
At the regional level you have to play the game. It's cost based almost exclusively. Eagle didn't have a prayer being so top loaded. If you're not in the flow and won't flow for another couple years I would've punched out and gone to Compass with the 12 month upgrades. You're not showing anyone in management anything by hanging around working as a lifer F/O. In fact you are playing right into their hands.
The #1 objective of a regional pilot should be to GTFO. There are going to be lifers at all airlines, but don't be one of them.
08-11-2014, 11:16 AM
#679
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,219
Originally Posted by PilotJ3
No man, if things go right or wrong, we will never make it to AA. Flow is just a pilot retention tool. Ask how did it work for the guys flowing right now.
Ok then, let's sign inn for PBS also. You will have less chance for a commutable line. You should had took a loan and go to Compass. If you lost 20 hrs TTOT, that means you can't sustain your family in CA by your own. While I'm basically the provider for my family.
Don't worry about my retirement. I'm doing all the correct steps towards it. Still have 38 more years before I can go and I will not make the JR guys go into a B scale.
We are the ones that have to make a change. This is the time for a change! I rather be in this situation now, than leave it to the guys coming behind us. I would not like to be in this situation if I have to pay more than 15k in a ATP. Let's make it worth, let's top whining, complaining and let's make this industry better. AA posted record profits! We are not the ones that have to keep giving them money.
The only way to move forward is get yourself out there and try to go somewhere else. That's what I'm doing and hope it will pay off. If I ever get hired somewhere, I will never come back into a AAG airline.
Listen to me, USAirways management will finish this company. They are converting it into a LCC. It's not a legacy anymore and I don't want to be part of if.
Ok then, let's sign inn for PBS also. You will have less chance for a commutable line. You should had took a loan and go to Compass. If you lost 20 hrs TTOT, that means you can't sustain your family in CA by your own. While I'm basically the provider for my family.
Don't worry about my retirement. I'm doing all the correct steps towards it. Still have 38 more years before I can go and I will not make the JR guys go into a B scale.
We are the ones that have to make a change. This is the time for a change! I rather be in this situation now, than leave it to the guys coming behind us. I would not like to be in this situation if I have to pay more than 15k in a ATP. Let's make it worth, let's top whining, complaining and let's make this industry better. AA posted record profits! We are not the ones that have to keep giving them money.
The only way to move forward is get yourself out there and try to go somewhere else. That's what I'm doing and hope it will pay off. If I ever get hired somewhere, I will never come back into a AAG airline.
Listen to me, USAirways management will finish this company. They are converting it into a LCC. It's not a legacy anymore and I don't want to be part of if.
I'm absolutely voting no on PBS, there is no gain there, only loss. I voted no to the bk deal as well, the only reason I voted yes to the AIP is because the trade off worked well for me.
I do agree with you about AAG, APA and the other unions made a big mistake selling that merger to the creditors.
Another reason why we are in this point. Negotiations starts soon in their side, they can't look weak over a larger group of people.
Specially APA, they are some hard core players.
08-11-2014, 11:43 AM
#680
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 255
Bzzt and embraer, your arguments are pointless as 70% of the Eagle pilots disagree with you, so why waste your time pushing your agenda?
Believe what you want, it's a free country. He'll, work for free for all I care. But don't expect many to follow your thought process. I've said it before... You are skilled labor in an ever shrinking supply working in a high demand industry, place some value on your skills.
And no, you are not mowing lawns in any analogy.
Believe what you want, it's a free country. He'll, work for free for all I care. But don't expect many to follow your thought process. I've said it before... You are skilled labor in an ever shrinking supply working in a high demand industry, place some value on your skills.
And no, you are not mowing lawns in any analogy.
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