PSA has it way better. They have 8-10 month upgrade and their 5/4 year CAs will be flowing ahead of envoy 15 year CAs. Starting January 1st. Oh...and also PDT. Envoy keeps getting effed harder and harder month by month. What is it? Like 40% of the entire pilot group will be on reserve for the month of DEC? Average line value is close to or less than min guarantee of 72 hours. We are the b!t@# airline of the wholly owneds. We aren't getting any flying back. October is over and AAG was supposed to allocate regional flying for the next year, we didn't get cr@p. Honestly, I don't even know why the pilot group trys anymore. I know i don't, I constantly write up aircraft and chuck wrenches all up in this b!$@# machine. AAG is still gonna believe in crap scrub carriers like MESA, Republic, and PSA to do all their flying and keep envoy "on call" to cover everyone else's shortcomings. Life sucks here at envoy do yourself a favor and go somewhere else until they hit their crisis point.

Should pilots come to Envoy based on what YOU expect to happen ?

They'd have to be colossal saps to do something like that. BTW, I recall that exact phrase about the "fountain of youth" on EL, but from Mason, not you. Perhaps you two ARE the same ? After all, doesn't Mason has a history of multiple personalities ?

Once again, it must be emphasized that the number of pilots who retire at AA does not necessarily equal the number of new pilots needed and thus a specific direct impact on future flows. I know it gives a warm and fuzzy to those cold and frazzled though.

I read on EL that the company is planning 205 upgrades for 2016 (not yet awarded) as per RW on 11/4. How many F/O's are there at Envoy, 1000 ?

That means Envoy will have to upgrade 800 in the following 1.5 years from January 2017 to mid 2018 to meet the 2.5 year upgrade for an Envoy new-hire of today. That math doesn't add up to me, but then again, I don't work for CLR or drink Envoy Kool-Aid like a famished water buffalo. :cool: Also, one MEC rep said no flows to AA for December and he'd be surprised if more then 20 go in January. That sounds like a very tepid start to the Envotopian conga line you and others are trumpeting here.

Caveat Emptor.

No, they should look at the numbers. The numbers point to movement and upgrades. Time to captain/time to flow? It's stupid to make predictions containing any sort of hard number, but things will start moving, and soon.

Well no s h it, Sherlock. Nobody with any sense is claiming any hard numbers without acknowledging the barriers between those numbers and reality, but there are expected numbers based on statements made AAG officials themselves, not some forum flunky. We can expect flow based on those numbers, and OF COURSE people take it wit ha grain of salt knowing the history of the flow's stability.


Jesus, you really think everyone but you is an idiot and incapable of thinking for themselves and incapable of making their own judgements based on available information? That's all you do... Take loose approximations, repackage them as "facts", then proceed to tell everyone else they're idiots for not adhering to your made-up little reality when virtually EVERYONE in this forum uses CONDITIONAL LANGUAGE when stating their opinions about the flow. Virtually EVERYONE says they know some serious hurdles need to be cleared before the projected timelines for upgrade and flow at Envoy are met. You can't read, can you? Or, at least you only read what suits your personal narrative in order to fuel your need to hear yourself talk.

AAG still hasn't announced who gets what flying next year yet. As of right now, no one knows.

What does the number of flows decrease to once the 824 are gone? Isn't it 35% of new hire classes? About the same as the other 2 WO'd?

Agreed, it's stupid to make predictions............but that is EXACTLY what some of your brethren are doing.


I'm sorry, Mr. Watson, but you are in denial if you think nobody is claiming hard numbers. Again, you either need to start acknowledging your fellow snake oil salesmen there or admit you are in denial. But, the post you are questioning here DOES have hard numbers from RW. 205 upgrades in 2016 and that means for 2.5 year upgrade to be valid, approximately 800 upgrades during the 1.5 years after that. Good luck with that one. :rolleyes:

Of course, if Envoy contracts or is involved in consolidation with another regional, 800 pilots WON'T need to be upgraded and then yes, at some point in say a year and a half a 2.5 year pilot could upgrade but depending on the SLI specifics, it most likely will be a pilot from the OTHER carrier with less longevity. :eek:


Well, considering posts like this, what would a normal person think ? :cool:

I find it interesting a post of mine that carriers HARD numbers as per your OWN management draws so much anger and frustration. Could that be because subconsciously you are uneasy about the promises being made, but since that's too painful to confront, you instead create a false façade of joy and thus become agitated when that is questioned with hard information that forces you into scary psychological places ?

Again, my point is that a lot COULD happen at Envoy, but considering the reputation and motives of your management, I'd be VERY leery of whatever promises are being made and the HARD information of 205 upgrades in 2016 DOES NOT produce an acceptably believable scenario when 800 pilots will need to be upgraded in the 1.5 years following 2016 to meet the mythical 2.5 year upgrade claim.

It cannot be emphasized enough for any pilot contemplating Envoy that Caveat Emptor should be their compass (no pun intended).

It goes to 35% until the 40th 175 is delivered. Then back to 50%. This should be about 4-6 months during the first half of 2017.

The understanding I've heard is that eventually, if one or more of the WO's are not consolidated (still fluid), then they will each be about equal with fleets and networks equal and equal flows. That means PSA/Peidmont would grow rapidly (once their present teething pains are resolved) and Envoy would contract somewhat once they are done pinch-hitting for the other two.

After the 824, those on property prior to October 11, 2011, 35% of all AA new hire training slots UNTIL the delivery of the 40th EMB-175 (June 2017), then flow increases to 50% and no fewer than 25 a class.

And what does the flow agreement at PSA and PDT say? (I already know the answer to this...) AAG is clearly lying to someone. There is no way that all three WO'd can have their flow agreements fulfilled.

You would think that after all of the punishment that Envoy (Eagle) has received over the past few decades, you guys would realize that management will screw you over every chance that they can get. Anyone that actually believe any of this is an idiot! You are being played. Open your eyes.