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Originally Posted by AdiosMikeFox
(Post 2076745)
Ah, but my plot twist was sarcasm...but is this an admission by you that my joke was not a fiction?
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Originally Posted by snippercr
(Post 2076750)
More 175s would probably not be growth airplanes. The first batch of 175s are through summer 2017. By then, the first 20 145s should be transferred to PDT. A new 175 order would probably go hand in hand with an equal further transfer of 145s to PDT. It would probably help recruitment since it's something other than bad news. Net fleet count would probably remain the same. This helps to bring the net fleet count over at PDT up and continues to make all 3 WOd carriers closer to the same size and brings more flying under AAG, but I digress...
As for RAH, Parker and Co knew this was coming since they had to have been in negotiations since the RAH contract got signed to get more money from AAG. Anytime a "big announcement" has been announced, yes, they are always underwhelming. |
New Envoy Information
In hand, we've got all sorts of problems, most glaringly the contract violations, schedules, ridiculous reserve everything, and a slow-through to AA.
And they want us to be excited about aircraft due to arrive over the span of years? Might be nice from a potential ENY recruit's viewpoint, but for those of us still here with the specter of continued shrinking still being held over our heads it isn't a very exciting possibility considering everything we have on our plates now. The present is too demoralizing to get happy about something that might happen. |
Originally Posted by ag386
(Post 2076741)
Envoy pilots. After AA, the most arrogant on the planet. What a d****e statement.
Putz. Jeez... |
Originally Posted by ag386
(Post 2076741)
Envoy pilots. After AA, the most arrogant on the planet. What a d****e statement.
Envoy pilots may or may not be arrogant D bags but here you are, not even an envoy pilot choosing to spend your free time with us. We may be d bags, but what does that say about you? Sad, my friend, sad. |
Originally Posted by dsmith3631
(Post 2076167)
Looking for an Envoy, former Eagle, pilot named Worth, J. Probably a CA now, or very senior FO. Please PM me an email or phone if able. We were childhood friends, but lost touch.
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Originally Posted by ag386
(Post 2076741)
Envoy pilots. After AA, the most arrogant on the planet. What a d****e statement.
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Originally Posted by FlameNSky
(Post 2076788)
Awe, buddy. Did I make you feel excluded? I'm sorry. Hey everybody, please don't pay any attention to ag386 either, he is also just a troll. You were hired at envoy in 2013, yes? Or was it 2011? No that's right, you are an PDT pilot. I really can't keep all your lies straight. I am sure neither can you.
Envoy pilots may or may not be arrogant D bags but here you are, not even an envoy pilot choosing to spend your free time with us. We may be d bags, but what does that say about you? Sad, my friend, sad. I mean, look at you. You are so concerned about where I work and where eaglefly works instead of the message we've been putting out. You are focusing on something else to keep your mind off the company you know is screwing you but can't admit it. You are the reverend of the pack and your silence on this board since the company metered speaks volumes. I hope you enjoy your lonnnng career at Envoy. Because it's going to be long, very long. On the bright side, you'll be in line at LGA with a "mainline type" aircraft behind Republic. |
Most airlines wish they had our problem of "only"'flowing 30/month. Yeah...life is so miserable here. Enjoy Allegient! LMAO
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Originally Posted by ag386
(Post 2076741)
Envoy pilots. After AA, the most arrogant on the planet. What a d****e statement.
You're in good company. |
Originally Posted by Skyvector
(Post 2077034)
Most airlines wish they had our problem of "only"'flowing 30/month. Yeah...life is so miserable here. Enjoy Allegient! LMAO
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Originally Posted by Skyvector
(Post 2077034)
Most airlines wish they had our problem of "only"'flowing 30/month. Yeah...life is so miserable here. Enjoy Allegient! LMAO
But they left. After one year making the same they would have at Envoy they upgraded. Now they are making $118,410 a year. Oh and they also live at home and might average 14 days off and 1 overnight a month due to a broken airplane. If they had stayed at Envoy I'll assume they would have upgraded at the end of 2017 (unlikely) but still are on the road 20 nights a month. Just based off junior line days off and guarantee: In 2015 their pay is the same it would have been at Envoy but they have 72 more days at home and 228 more nights in their own bed. In 2016 they will make 83,880 more than Envoy with another 72 more days at home and 228 more nights in their own bed. In 2017 they will make 84,720 more than Envoy with another 72 more days at home and 228 more nights in their own bed. At the start of 2018 we'll assume they upgrade at Envoy but now they are on the bottom of the rsv list commuting across the country. In 2018 they still make 51,660 more at Allegiant than Envoy but now they are home 101 more days and in their own bed 281 more nights. In 2019 they make 50,700 more at Allegiant. In 2020 they flow to American but in the 5 years at Envoy they lose out on $270,960, 447 days off 1246 nights in their own bed. And on first year pay at AA they are still making 52,416 less than Allegiant and on the road way more. With that $270,960 that they made at Allegiant if they put that money away in a low risk account with an average 5% return on investment by the time they retire they will have 1,478,183.96. So who is laughing now? |
Originally Posted by ag386
(Post 2077083)
The latest guy to flow is a September 1999 hire. It's gonna take a while to get to your 2011 hire date.
How long WILL it take for a 2011 hire to flow over? |
Originally Posted by shfo
(Post 2077091)
I would not be laughing at that Allegiant pilot. We have had a few FOs leave in the past couple of years. I know 3 2011 hires who left in 2014. If they would have stayed, they would be junior line holders commuting half way across the country for uncommutable 4 day trips with 11 days off worth 72 hours.
But they left. After one year making the same they would have at Envoy they upgraded. Now they are making $118,410 a year. Oh and they also live at home and might average 14 days off and 1 overnight a month due to a broken airplane. If they had stayed at Envoy I'll assume they would have upgraded at the end of 2017 (unlikely) but still are on the road 20 nights a month. Just based off junior line days off and guarantee: In 2015 their pay is the same it would have been at Envoy but they have 72 more days at home and 228 more nights in their own bed. In 2016 they will make 83,880 more than Envoy with another 72 more days at home and 228 more nights in their own bed. In 2017 they will make 84,720 more than Envoy with another 72 more days at home and 228 more nights in their own bed. At the start of 2018 we'll assume they upgrade at Envoy but now they are on the bottom of the rsv list commuting across the country. In 2018 they still make 51,660 more at Allegiant than Envoy but now they are home 101 more days and in their own bed 281 more nights. In 2019 they make 50,700 more at Allegiant. In 2020 they flow to American but in the 5 years at Envoy they lose out on $270,960, 447 days off 1246 nights in their own bed. And on first year pay at AA they are still making 52,416 less than Allegiant and on the road way more. With that $270,960 that they made at Allegiant if they put that money away in a low risk account with an average 5% return on investment by the time they retire they will have 1,478,183.96. So who is laughing now? What assumptions are you making about the career progression of allegiant pilots? Your "objective" facts leave out half the story. But it's ok, we're used to it. |
Allegiant is one unmaintained aircraft crash away from shutting down. With all the major maintenance problems they have daily it is just a matter of time. How do the calculations work out then? Have fun over there. Enjoy your monthly non commutable TDY to BFE.
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Originally Posted by RyanP
(Post 2077119)
Allegiant is one unmaintained aircraft crash away from shutting down. With all the major maintenance problems they have daily it is just a matter of time. How do the calculations work out then? Have fun over there. Enjoy your monthly non commutable TDY to BFE.
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Originally Posted by boiler07
(Post 2077100)
And how long does it take for them to overtake allegiant pilots once they're pulling salary from american? Don't forget the automatic retirement contributions made by the company.
What assumptions are you making about the career progression of allegiant pilots? Your "objective" facts leave out half the story. But it's ok, we're used to it. Based on that, AA will overcome AAY in 2031. Over the course of their career AA would pay out (with the 16% DC) 8,215,120 vs 4,800,000 at AAY. Now include that 1,478,000 you stashed away you are over 6,000,000 which is 2 million less than AA. This is also based on today's numbers which are likely to change and I believe AAY is way more likely to see significant gains than AA. |
Originally Posted by RyanP
(Post 2077119)
Allegiant is one unmaintained aircraft crash away from shutting down. With all the major maintenance problems they have daily it is just a matter of time. How do the calculations work out then? Have fun over there. Enjoy your monthly non commutable TDY to BFE.
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Originally Posted by boiler07
(Post 2077097)
And more twisted facts about how long the flow takes. Some things never change. :roll eyes:
How long WILL it take for a 2011 hire to flow over? |
Originally Posted by shfo
(Post 2077126)
Just based off retirement data from APC I have them upgrading at AA when they hit 50% seniority and upgrading onto the 737. I have them as a CA on the 777 the last 12 years of their career.
Based on that, AA will overcome AAY in 2031. Over the course of their career AA would pay out (with the 16% DC) 8,215,120 vs 4,800,000 at AAY. Now include that 1,478,000 you stashed away you are over 6,000,000 which is 2 million less than AA. This is also based on today's numbers which are likely to change and I believe AAY is way more likely to see significant gains than AA. How much do they make if they go to Alegiant for couple years and get picked up at AA faster outside the flow? |
Originally Posted by 1stCivDivPilot
(Post 2077133)
Not picking sides.....
How much do they make if they go to Alegiant for couple years and get picked up at AA faster outside the flow? |
Originally Posted by shfo
(Post 2077126)
Just based off retirement data from APC I have them upgrading at AA when they hit 50% seniority and upgrading onto the 737. I have them as a CA on the 777 the last 12 years of their career.
Based on that, AA will overcome AAY in 2031. Over the course of their career AA would pay out (with the 16% DC) 8,215,120 vs 4,800,000 at AAY. Now include that 1,478,000 you stashed away you are over 6,000,000 which is 2 million less than AA. This is also based on today's numbers which are likely to change and I believe AAY is way more likely to see significant gains than AA. You might be more optimistic, but I won't bet on allegiant getting parity with mainline. Too much risk for me. As you said, AA pays a pilot more depending on the length of their career. Whether that's something a pilot wants is completely up to them. |
Originally Posted by ag386
(Post 2077130)
My best guess right now if everything stays good with the economy along with AA metering going forward. About 2020-2021.
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Originally Posted by boiler07
(Post 2077150)
Why guess when you can do the math?
Dude, get a grip. Your brain is pickled from Envoy juice and you can't see past the Envoy recruiting posters in your room at your parents house. Where are those big upgrade numbers this year that's going to net you a Captain's seat and that magical flow in just a couple of years from now. |
Originally Posted by ag386
(Post 2077140)
Or go to Allegiant and get picked up a couple of years later at United, Delta or Southwest.
They took 58 street hires in 2015. To me it's clear that you need a lot more than just 2-3k hours PIC to get a street hire spot. http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10...6095388693.jpg |
Originally Posted by 1stCivDivPilot
(Post 2077133)
Not picking sides.....
How much do they make if they go to Alegiant for couple years and get picked up at AA faster outside the flow? |
Originally Posted by shfo
(Post 2077091)
I would not be laughing at that Allegiant pilot. We have had a few FOs leave in the past couple of years. I know 3 2011 hires who left in 2014. If they would have stayed, they would be junior line holders commuting half way across the country for uncommutable 4 day trips with 11 days off worth 72 hours.
But they left. After one year making the same they would have at Envoy they upgraded. Now they are making $118,410 a year. Oh and they also live at home and might average 14 days off and 1 overnight a month due to a broken airplane. If they had stayed at Envoy I'll assume they would have upgraded at the end of 2017 (unlikely) but still are on the road 20 nights a month. Just based off junior line days off and guarantee: In 2015 their pay is the same it would have been at Envoy but they have 72 more days at home and 228 more nights in their own bed. In 2016 they will make 83,880 more than Envoy with another 72 more days at home and 228 more nights in their own bed. In 2017 they will make 84,720 more than Envoy with another 72 more days at home and 228 more nights in their own bed. At the start of 2018 we'll assume they upgrade at Envoy but now they are on the bottom of the rsv list commuting across the country. In 2018 they still make 51,660 more at Allegiant than Envoy but now they are home 101 more days and in their own bed 281 more nights. In 2019 they make 50,700 more at Allegiant. In 2020 they flow to American but in the 5 years at Envoy they lose out on $270,960, 447 days off 1246 nights in their own bed. And on first year pay at AA they are still making 52,416 less than Allegiant and on the road way more. With that $270,960 that they made at Allegiant if they put that money away in a low risk account with an average 5% return on investment by the time they retire they will have 1,478,183.96. So who is laughing now? |
Originally Posted by ag386
(Post 2077157)
Oh yes I forgot! 2.5 years to upgrade and 6 years to flow. Guess you are about to upgrade since that came out in May 2015.
Dude, get a grip. Your brain is pickled from Envoy juice and you can't see past the Envoy recruiting posters in your room at your parents house. Where are those big upgrade numbers this year that's going to net you a Captain's seat and that magical flow in just a couple of years from now. Since math isn't your strong suit... When you account for the different trigger points (40 E75s and the protected pilot rate) a 2011 hire goes in late 2019 or 2020 depending on where they were in the hiring wave that year. |
Originally Posted by boiler07
(Post 2077165)
I didn't say anything about those numbers. However, you and I agree about the 2.5 year upgrade. It becomes less of a possibility every day.
Since math isn't your strong suit... When you account for the different trigger points (40 E75s and the protected pilot rate) a 2011 hire goes in late 2019 or 2020 depending on where they were in the hiring wave that year. 2010 Hires are about 120 to 150 = 6months That means that in less than 1 year, Envoy 2008 and 2010 hires will be gone. Of course once they hit those DOH. Which should be probably by 2018... |
Originally Posted by daOldMan
(Post 2077123)
Typical Envoy pilot. Hoping other airlines have a crash and kill people just so they can feel better about themselves.
I wouldn't put my family on them. They have major problems constantly. Take a look in the Allegiant thread. Here is just a few clips from hundreds of articles: "OCALA — Veteran aircraft mechanic Greg Marino worked at Allegiant Air for just two weeks before he quit because of what he said are the airline's dangerous maintenance practices. Marino said mechanics at the airline's facility in Sanford often lapsed into bad maintenance habits. He said they failed to follow proper procedure in diagnosing aircraft problems and routinely misused a Federal Aviation Administration program that allowed planes, under some conditions, to fly with inoperative components or systems. Marino said the airline needlessly delayed repairs in the push to keep planes flying, eroding the margin of safety." Meanwhile, the fleet is plagued by persistent mechanical problems due to poor equipment and the company’s unwillingness to invest in its operation or its workforce, as attested by the numerous FAA safety investigations, aircraft groundings, and training program closures. The company’s profits are propped up by the extra workload placed on its understaffed, underpaid and overworked workforce and its minimalist approach to maintenance and safety. With Allegiant making millions in profits each year, our customers and our families should not be put at risk by a company that is content to just barely meet safety standards – a mindset that results in the delays and cancellations you experience when you fly with us. Allegiant represents the worst in an economy today where greedy CEOs disregard needed investments into a company’s workforce and infrastructure at the expense of passenger safety and for the benefit of Wall Street. The Teamsters Aviation Mechanics Coalition recently came out with a report criticizing the airline's maintenance policies. It says that from September of 2014 to March of this year, there were 65 incidents where planes had to be diverted or returned to the gate because of mechanical problems. "They seem to be putting profits before safety, and that to me is a very frightening thing," said Chris Moore, the chairman of the coalition. "If Allegiant is number two with a 21 percent profit margin, they should not be having these kinds of maintenance issues." "For the size of their fleet, and to have as many emergency landings as they have and for them to keep turning a blind eye - I'd say it's definitely out of the ordinary," he said. The pilots union said that the number of emergency incidents and mechanical problems in the last year comes from Allegiant "cutting corners" on safety. It calls for increased oversight from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), as well as overhauling the company's training programs. And just one week before that, on Aug. 17, a Las Vegas to Peoria, Illinois, flight failed after an out of control takeoff attempt . The plane's nose came up prematurely and pilots couldn't force it back down. "And that's one of the issues that made the hair on the back of my neck stand up when I saw this issue. Because it reminds me so much of pre-accident ValuJet and that makes me very, very nervous," said John Goglia, a former member of the National Transportation Safety Board. Unions representing both pilots and mechanics say old planes and scrimping on maintenance make flying Allegiant like playing Russian roulette. "If you continue to run an airline and not put money into maintenance, eventually you're gonna get into a situation that you can't recover from," said Moore. https://www.aeroinside.com/incidents/airline/allegiant Never even had a hint of an engine problem or any dangerous mechanical issues in a decade at this company. . |
Originally Posted by Crawl
(Post 2076727)
Heard from some people in training that Ric came in for some Q and A and people questioned him pretty hard. When one asked, "do you really think it will be 2.5/6?" He responded, "Did I say 2.5? I think I said 3." :eek: That's not helping anyone's trust level. But... Supposedly more "good news" coming next week to keep that "momentum" building...
Bets on what the news will be? Excercising the options? :rolleyes: Taking back planes from Expressjet? TSA? Compass? Something relating to Reublic's recent bankruptcy filing? 300 upgrayyyyyyyydes?!?!?! I believe the good news is the vacancy bid. And no, don't expect 300 upgrades. |
The long overdue March 4th vacancy bid?
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Seeing as the latest rumor is just 50, they have a long way to go to meet last year's promises.
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Originally Posted by highflyer1980
(Post 2077182)
I believe the good news is the vacancy bid. And no, don't expect 300 upgrades.
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Originally Posted by Crawl
(Post 2077473)
Not the vacancy bid. I'm having fantastical visions that they announce the reopening of the Miami base with Envoy taking AAG's 175's from Republic. Man the beds in Bedford make me have crazy dreams. I don't want to wake up.
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Originally Posted by ag386
(Post 2077023)
I mean, look at you. You are so concerned about where I work and where eaglefly works instead of the message we've been putting out. You are focusing on something else to keep your mind off the company you know is screwing you but can't admit it.
My only concern with you and your handler eaglefly is that you don't work for envoy. I have a problem with all pilots who don't work for envoy coming here to push an agenda and trash a company they don't work for. I have no problem with an actual envoy pilot complaining about things or highlighting the negative aspects of the company. I am not all "rainbows and butterflies" when it comes to this company, but there are so many former employees and people, like yourself, that work for other regionals beating the negativity drum, I don't have to. Think of it like this. I torment my younger brother without mercy. But I will not stand for another person bullying or attacking him. I will pound that person into oblivion. For instance, I have not said a thing about AdiosMikeFox's comments/compliants about envoy, because he actually works here with a vested interest in the company. He has the right to complain. You do not. What is the expressions? "America Either Love it or Leave it" I have no problem with criticism or complaint. But I do have a problem with offensive attempts to tear down. Whether it is my country, my company or my family. You either pitch in and help make it a better place or you can move on. My biggest problem with eaglefly is that after he no longer had any use for envoy, he has attempted to destroy with company. You never heard a word out of him about envoy and the flow until he no longer depended on it.
Originally Posted by ag386
(Post 2077023)
I hope you enjoy your lonnnng career at Envoy. Because it's going to be long, very long. On the bright side, you'll be in line at LGA with a "mainline type" aircraft behind Republic.
ag386, if you spent as much time and effort just trying to make PDT a better place as you do, trying to tear down other company's, you would be a much better person, liked by your peers instead being the butt of their jokes. |
Originally Posted by Crawl
(Post 2077473)
Not the vacancy bid. I'm having fantastical visions that they announce the reopening of the Miami base with Envoy taking AAG's 175's from Republic. Man the beds in Bedford make me have crazy dreams. I don't want to wake up.
[emoji38] LOL. I appreciate your humor. I think that's all we have left to get us through every trip through hell. (work) |
Originally Posted by AdiosMikeFox
(Post 2077404)
Seeing as the latest rumor is just 50, they have a long way to go to meet last year's promises.
Indeed. I heard it was a mix of DFW and ORD and they will backfill. But that's just a rumor. I am also hoping that, like last time, the 50 is an understatement. Something more like 75-80 upgrades? Only one way to find out. |
Originally Posted by highflyer1980
(Post 2077656)
Indeed.
I heard it was a mix of DFW and ORD .. Lol, as if we have anyplace else! It's good to have opportunity for both bases, but I also wonder if there is a displacement attached. There was a rumor that they were going to force people into the 175. |
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