Originally Posted by ag386 (Post 2078637)

You are one of the pro Envoy guys right? The ones who jump all over anyone who says something negative about Envoy.

Hardly. As I've said many times, the 2.5 year upgrade is fast becoming an impossibility. It seems to concern you that someone is pointing out your motives, so you have resorted to feeble attempts at lumping me in with the rest.:cool:


I agree that the date of pilots currently flowing may not necessarily be an indicator of a future flow time frame.

But you follow up with 6 more paragraphs to redirect your arguments.


What I can give you though is the last pilot to flow was around the 330's on the list. Let's just look at those hired through the end of 2011 since that's about when the current agreement of 50% ends. The end of 2011 hires are around the 1710s. So, 1380ish guys to flow. If you flow 300 per year, you are looking at about 4.6 years to get through the end of 2011. So, about October 2020 until the last 2011 hire makes it over from today. So, there's your company math.

This is actually the most straightforward thing I've ever seen you write.


That's saying that Envoy will flow 30 guys each and every month for the next 4.6 years from today without stopping. We already know that the flow is going to stop around June. We don't know how long though, it depends on how many come back.

Your timeline is wrong, but that doesn't matter. What does matter, like you said, is the duration. It's estimated by AAG management, not Envoy, at 3 months.


Attrition will likely help improve your numbers above by the way. Now, let's look at the fleet. We know the CRJ's aren't going anywhere soon, if at all. The pilot crunch is on big time as PSA can't find guys to fly what AAG wants them to. Let's just say that Envoy lands with 35 CRJ's, 90 145's and 40 175's to fly for the next two years solid. And let's figure 1750 total guys needed to do that. Sure, you guys have 1/3 or more of the company on reserve today, but as those 175's keep trickling in and the CRJ's stay and 145's stay due to cheap gas, you will need more pilots.

With 1900ish guys on the list today, I would say by the end of this year, you will start hearing the company squawking about not having the pilots to fly what AAG wants them to.

You're probably right about this too...along with 90% of the other regionals.


I will admit that if the company honors the flow, which they have already proved they aren't going to, coupled with the math above, yes, it adds up to a 6 year flow for everyone today. A projection just like you guys are so happy to talk about.

This is a bit of a mischaracterization. Management is at a turning point until the end of the year. IF, and yes that's IF, they true-up at the end of the year, there won't be a problem. The agreement allows them to do this.


Here's your big IF. Will Envoy get enough new hires to replace the pilots leaving via flow and attrition? Hiring 15 per month isn't going to cut it. One thing I can guarantee you is......Envoy ain't gonna park any airplanes that AAG wants them to fly, flow be d**ned.

I agree that in the long term the numbers to sustain staffing are questionable, and that is something that every wholly owned will have to address. You however seem to have all the answers. :rolleyes:


There's your big problem as I see it. This goes along with the very rosy picture painted above. My best guess is that Envoy will flow out the 824 as soon as possible and then, if not before if 824 guys are needed for staffing, you'll start to hear the company's complaints about how they can't flow due to the necessity of staffing Envoy frames. They've already proven that with an overstaffed situation, they're willing to go against you guys for a mere 5 guys in one month. This is even before the big flow slowdown of the summer while Letter T's return.

Originally Posted by cr700 (Post 2078303)

Also, looking at the planned upgrades for 2016, 250, that factors in and works out to be exactly a 2.5 year upgrade for you.

A piece of advice. It's great to get information anywhere you can, but you'll soon realize that here there are some who cannot stand seeing that Envoy is having great success with the flow. They may have taken a long time to upgrade at Envoy and when they see are new guy come on board and upgrade in 2.5 years, it rubs them the wrong way. It shouldn't, as they are flowing as well, but for some reason it doesn't sit well with them.

Just focus on your training and doing the best job that you can. Envoy has a great contract and you will have good quality of life as you move up the seniority ladder and directly into that seat at AA

Originally Posted by eaglefly (Post 2078550)

Bad information ?

By all means correct me with specifics. I'm all ears. :rolleyes:

Again, many of you guys slap the "troll" label on anyone and anything you disagree with (ostensibly in the hope you can silence others, no doubt). Labeling others that ad nauseum doesn't make it any more accurate.

Originally Posted by fina (Post 2078727)

I dont call anybody a troll except for you and a few others like cr700,he is a sell rep for envoy so his opinion doesn't matter.
This is none of your business.You get your information about envoy from EL then you come here and tell people that this company suck just from what you read in El.
EL is not the place to get accurate information about envoy.
The guys that do work here are the ones that can give accurate information about envoy. You are Irrelevant
Go back to the AA forum and post there, you dont work here.

Originally Posted by AdiosMikeFox (Post 2078766)

Typical thread in any ENY APC post:

Someone - starts a thread

Question gets posted

Reply - opinion

Reply - opinion with some hypothetical numbers based on company info

Reply - more info, possible positives

EF - rebuttal, adds nothing new he hasn't said ad nauseam for over a year. :smileyface: (not necessarily wrong, but nothing new)


Reply - opinion, some more info/opinion.


EF - calls previous posters wrong, states ENY salesmen are here. States he has facts. :smileyface:


Reply - what facts? All replies are labeled conspiracy and salesmen!


EF - see?! Nobody can do it. You're all just attacking me. Mah facts! :smileyface:


Rebuttal - you haven't got facts, you're a troll!


EF - personal attacks again! Nobody has any facts except me! Here I am, minding my own business! :smileyface:


New poster - just ignore him! He's just a troll!


EF - you cannot silence me! Personal attacks! Salesmen! :smileyface:


Repeat until thread dies.

New question or info is posted

Start all over again after a new post is made.

Originally Posted by eagleflea (Post 2079034)

I got a small pipi!!
:cool::D
eaglefly

Originally Posted by eaglefly (Post 2078824)

Typical anti-eaglefly post from one of the jackals.

* Other posts, some of which have nothing to do with me or I'm not even actively participating.

* Jackal - eaglefly this, eaglefly that.

* More posting by others and me.

* Jackal - eaglefly up, eaglefly down.

* Yet more posting be various members.

* Jackal - eaglefly left, eaglefly right.

* Other Jackals - no discussion of issues, just more eaglefly, eaglefly, eaglefly.

Repeat ad nauseum. :cool:

Originally Posted by adspilot (Post 2079174)

You post on here incessantly about every topic. You post more than anyone on here.

Why are you here??

That's the only thing I want to know. Why are you posting on a forum about a company you never worked for?

In case you were wondering if there was any irony in my post I'll make it clear. Those questions were rhetorical.

Originally Posted by adspilot (Post 2079174)

You post on here incessantly about every topic. You post more than anyone on here.

Why are you here??

That's the only thing I want to know. Why are you posting on a forum about a company you never worked for?

In case you were wondering if there was any irony in my post I'll make it clear. Those questions were rhetorical.

Originally Posted by eagleflea (Post 2079034)

I got a small pipi!!
:cool::D
eaglefly

Originally Posted by DaCowboys (Post 2078924)

Anyone have a count on newbies for the month? Thanks in advance.

Originally Posted by boiler07 (Post 2079273)

3 OFC yesterday

Originally Posted by PieInTheSky88 (Post 2079331)

Would you leave Envoy for jetblue if you had been here for more then 5years? Don't want to start an argument, just want intelligent opinions. And yes IK all the flow promises and would be over at AA in potentially 3 years, my gut tells me to pack up shop and say adios to Envoy.

Originally Posted by PieInTheSky88 (Post 2079331)

Would you leave Envoy for jetblue if you had been here for more then 5years? Don't want to start an argument, just want intelligent opinions. And yes IK all the flow promises and would be over at AA in potentially 3 years, my gut tells me to pack up shop and say adios to Envoy.

Originally Posted by N927EV (Post 2079338)

It depends. Where do you live? Personally, id go to Jetblue if their bases worked for me. But, the commute for me would be miserable, so they're a no go for me. I have a friend there and loves it!

Originally Posted by PilotJ3 (Post 2079377)

Well B6 commuter policy is great. 1 flight on their metal. You don't make it, not big deal, you're off the whole trip. Use the PTO to cover it.

Originally Posted by N927EV (Post 2079386)

Yeah, but a 3+ hr commute each way for me doesn't sound like fun.

Originally Posted by PieInTheSky88 (Post 2079331)

Would you leave Envoy for jetblue if you had been here for more then 5years? Don't want to start an argument, just want intelligent opinions. And yes IK all the flow promises and would be over at AA in potentially 3 years, my gut tells me to pack up shop and say adios to Envoy.

Originally Posted by ag386 (Post 2079165)

You're too funny Skyvector. An 8 year old kid trapped in a grownup's Envoy pilot body. That will flow to AA in 15 years!

Originally Posted by eaglefly (Post 2079191)

It's commonly spelled "pepe", you infantile imbecile. If you're going to make childish insults, at least improve your grammar. ;)

Originally Posted by cr700 (Post 2079508)

You absolutely do not want to do this. Even from an Envoy FO seat, this is a lateral move. You'll be stagnating your career and potentially get stuck at a LCC, maybe for life.

Consider it a step down if you are a CA. Cannot understand why any ENY Captain or even FO would be considering such a move. From an FO perspective, you already have a job at the largest major in the world just waiting on you.

Originally Posted by cr700 (Post 2079508)

You absolutely do not want to do this. Even from an Envoy FO seat, this is a lateral move. You'll be stagnating your career and potentially get stuck at a LCC, maybe for life.

Consider it a step down if you are a CA. Cannot understand why any ENY Captain or even FO would be considering such a move. From an FO perspective, you already have a job at the largest major in the world just waiting on you.

Originally Posted by PieInTheSky88 (Post 2079524)

I would be leaving under the terms of staying at JetBlue until retirement. My concern with the flow is that of everyone who truly understands it. It can and for all purposes should slow down this summer with the final return of the furloughes. Right now I'm looking at 3-4 years however that will change after May. By how much no one knows. Let's say it adds 6 months. Now I'm at 3.5-4.5 years before flow, still not terrible but being a New englander that's a long time for a guaranteed commute by airplane appossed to driving to work at JetBlue(BOS-JFK JR bases) And at the end of the day going to JetBlue will not cut me off from a chance in the near future at either big 3, so all tho I will be leaving on the hope to stay until retirement - it's not an ultimatum. Obviously it is weighing on me and I do appreciate the advice offered thanks.

(Let's see how this vacancy bid turns out. That could be the final straw either way)

Originally Posted by PilotCrusader (Post 2079537)

Lateral move. Laughable.
First year pay at JetBlue is $8k more than the highest FO salary($50k vs $42k).
Second year pay at JetBlue is the same as 11 year Captain pay($87)
Third year FO pay at JetBlue is higher than ANY Captain pay here at envoy.

Upgrade time at JetBlue is currently lower than many of our FOs have been sitting reserve.

A 1 year FO I know has weekends off and 16 days off in March, with 24hr overnights in Aruba, St.Lucia, St.Maarten and Seattle.

JetBlue isn't owned by someone else and thusly their red headed step child: no Fatboy Wilsons and Pehro's blaming the 11-12 day off lines on Big daddy Parker giving the good flying away to other regionals.

But yeah - it's a lateral move - Cuz of flow right?

Moron.

Originally Posted by cr700 (Post 2079544)

Do you even work here? I guess you don't understand the AA pay scale. AA first year pay is $76/hour. Goes up really fast after that. You're telling me you'll give that up for a shaky LCC that is truly a lateral move for FO's and a downgrade for Envoy Captains?

Originally Posted by cr700 (Post 2079508)

You absolutely do not want to do this. Even from an Envoy FO seat, this is a lateral move. You'll be stagnating your career and potentially get stuck at a LCC, maybe for life.

Consider it a step down if you are a CA. Cannot understand why any ENY Captain or even FO would be considering such a move. From an FO perspective, you already have a job at the largest major in the world just waiting on you.

Originally Posted by cr700 (Post 2079544)

Do you even work here? I guess you don't understand the AA pay scale. AA first year pay is $76/hour. Goes up really fast after that. You're telling me you'll give that up for a shaky LCC that is truly a lateral move for FO's and a downgrade for Envoy Captains?

Originally Posted by PilotCrusader (Post 2079559)

I've likely been here longer than you kiddo; my time has come and gone. I'll be damned if I'm going to let immoral liars like yourself ruin kids lives though.

Shaky LCC? You either live in a box or pay no attention to the financials of other airlines. JetBlue is one of the most sturdy major airlines out there.

"Truly a lateral move". That statement keeps coming out. Did your mommy in marketing tell you to keep this line going whenever pressured, Marco Rubio? Because it doesn't float. A 3 year FO at Envoy makes $40/hr and most likely flies an E145 to Lawton Oklahoma. A 3 year FO at JetBlue makes $103/hr and likely flies an A320/321 to Aruba. Hey but keep on spewing nonsense. It makes you look absolutely stupid.

The rest of your post is just dangling the flow as a carrot: a flow that has 16 year eagle CAs going right now that we're told 16 years ago they would flow in 3 years. There is NO guarantee that FOs here will actually flow to AA. Dic(head) wilson already said they plan to keep metering the flow, in clear violation of the contract, which will bring this years flow rate below 50%. I'm sure you management lackeys will spin that by just stating the overall flow rate since it started, all the way up to the moment that goes below 50%, and then you'll find some other way to distract.
The bottom line is you are trying to sell an old stale carrot to get poor unsuspecting kids to stay/come here and work their butts off with little pay, a broken reserve system, and 11-12 days off a max for years. I've been here well over 20 and I can barely hold above that.

Originally Posted by 1stCivDivPilot (Post 2079562)

Sure when you finally get to AA. I know, I know......6 years (with no real math and grand assumptions to back it up.)

Shaky LCC? JB? How do you even take yourself seriously.

Originally Posted by boiler07 (Post 2079565)

Metering in itself is not a violation of the contract.