Envoy or PSA
 

I know there are a lot of these vs threads, however with the deluge of information it's hard to compare the two.

I'm an ex XJT guy looking at getting back into the rat race. I've been trying to decide between PSA and Envoy based on my current residence.

Envoy:
121 Preferred Interview. E.g. no tech or system questions. HR only.
Already 145 Typed
DFW has 10+ flights daily from my current residence with almost 100% schedule certainty.
ORD has 3/4 during the travel season going to only 1 floater during the winter.
Reserve looks like it sucks on the 145. Almost three years!!?? Also I'm not to kosher on the whole JM'ing nonsense.
175 isn't possible as I'm very young. The recruiter told me it's age based in class and based on my age it's practically impossible.
I refuse to commute or move to LGA. That's at best a two leg commute. Which I did at XJT and it sucked the life out of me.
CRJ is going away in 2017/18.
Upgrade is about 5 years??

PSA:
Full interview as I didn't meet their 121 requirement.
I'd have to move to base unless I got CLT out of the gate.
CLT has about 3 daily flights depending on the month.
SAP once I'm R1.
Reserve is under a year depending on base. R1 right under a year and dropping at the DAY junior base.
No reserve BS if I've read the threads correctly.
Upgrade in about 2.

Basically, Envoy is the best for commuting and PSA is the best for short reserve and SAP. I'd love to have the best of both worlds but that's fantasy.

Well it appears you've analyzed it pretty well. Guess you'll just have to make your decision. Would you be in a situation where you could/would move to a base somewhere? I was in a situation where I was looking for a regional and was unwilling to relocate. It does limit options. I picked PSA because I think they had the best "package" but your situation may not be the same.
Sometimes, when faced with a similar decision, I actually make a list with the pros/cons for each option next to each other. Leave that lay for a while and keep adding to it as you think of new things that matter to you.

Ex XJT guy here. I didn't qualify for PSA expedited Skype interview either. I recently interviewed with them and it was a walk in the park. Good guys at the presentation who didn't try to brain wash you and told you "if you think this the right place for you, come join us. If not, then thanks for coming out and good luck to you."

The HR portion was where they asked most questions. My technical was all Jeppesen and nothing more. The entire interview lasted about 10 minutes. The written test in my opinion determines how long your interview will last. I personally know I did well as I studied my butt off and didn't try to take anything for granted. Because of that, I did very well on the written and knew all the answers. The gouge is online also which makes it that much easier. PSA is growing and seems to be the place to be at right now. I didn't select ENY for that very reason. Reserve. ENY from my understanding is just like ASA.

ENY is a great company but lots of senior people there from what I read. I can't do reserve much longer anymore as I was reserve the entire time I was at ASA(ExpressJet). However, ENY seems to be hiring tons of people. Reserve times may drop if they haven't already. It really comes down to what do you prefer most.

Best of luck!

I should add that the SAP that PSA has is especially valuable to a commuter.

I think people will hold clt out of training according to this last fo vacancy announcement.


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Skywest.

JSing.

Former Xjt 145 FO based IAD and IAH coming to PSA in 2014 was one decision I have never regretted. SAP is absolutely awesome! Never miss a holiday again! Heck take the week off for the holidays if you want.

West coast guy here...you guys think commuting from CLT would be palatable? Thanks :)

Painful process. Think long term.

I've met a few who do it, and it sounds kind of brutal. Lots of red eyes, get to base early before a trip and sleep in the CLT crew room for a few hours before show time. We have a few senior CAs who have commuted from the west coast for years, but they've also been round 1 since we've had SAP and can SAP to 18 days off which makes it palatable. First year commuting from the west coast wouldn't be fun though and CLT is about the only base it would work out for you unless you want to double down on your pain and 2-leg commute it (I know a guy who does it and I shake my head every time). Bottom line is that being on reserve while commuting from the west coast would suck. But, reserve shouldn't be terribly long if you're dead set on PSA. Although if I were on the west coast I'd be looking at SkyWest personally.

What's SAP?

"Schedule Adjustment Period"

The SAP at PSA is the main reason I came here, along with the CLT base being an easy 1 leg commute for me. It is by far the largest quality of life enhancer you could possibly imagine. If I want 17-18 days off, I can have them. If I want to credit 100 hours and still have 11 days off, that's possible too. Weekends, holidays, birthdays, family events are all easy to get off.

The way the PSA SAP works is as follows: At PSA, there are in its most basic form, 2 tiers of pilots in any given domicile. Round 1, and round 2 which includes those pilots who are on reserve or have "build up" lines. SAP is only accessible to round 1 line holders. After the round 1 line holders are awarded their schedules, they then have a 24 hour period in which to swap, drop, move, or pick up any trip or flying that is in the open-time pot. The open-time pot updates periodically with new trips and flying so it is something that you are generally working on for a good portion of that 24 hour window to get the schedule you want. That being said, it seems that processing times are still rather slow based on the last SAP from October and not "real time" like they're supposed to be. Regardless, I still get what I want every month. I usually like to SAP down to 17-18 days off and 65-70 hours of credit. However, for November and December I have decided to work more for some extra coin for Christmas coming up and in preparation for tax season, but I still have thanksgiving off and I'll still have Christmas off too.

Take notice that none of us from Envoy are selling it. So when crj-700 or others come in here and try to tell you Envoy is a great place to be, think very hard about it.

That sounds like a pretty sweet deal! Thanks for the explanation.

Just curious. Why isn't Piedmont an option?


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Maybe something to do with PDT flying Dash's and 145's, both of which are outdated and headed for the desert soon.

Sounds like PSA would provide you the best QOL initially, but if your final goal is AA then PSA is probably not the place to go. Unless you have a military background, you are not getting hired at AA off the street and PSA's flow is a joke. What is it? 10+ years for a new hire today.

PSA knows their flow, reserve and upgrades times can't compete with Piedmont (and probably envoy) so they bend over backwards selling SAP. That's fine, just go in to any new job with your eyes wide open.

Alright I'll give it a shot... reserve is dropping like a rock in the next couple of months. Upgrading 30 per month on average. Flowing 30 per month. Upgrade times are dropping very vast as well. If the current hiring and attrition continues the upgrades will be around two years. This is coming from a guy on reserve for two years.

This place has its faults and I'm not going to paint a rosy picture of what management and scheduling do when they are in a pinch.

Good luck where ever you go.

Huh? Our upgrade was incredibly short in late 2015 when we were hiring street CAs. And it will likely remain around 2 years going forward as we grow and take on more airplanes. Our flow will increase in 2017 and we are in negotiations for it to increase beyond what we currently have using the current metric. The company also seems to want to wait on the arbitrator's final decision about our critical pay and their manipulation of our reserve grid before agreeing to any further changes to our current flow metric. And our reserve/upgrade time is far ahead of Envoy. Our reserve and upgrade times were like yours are now not too long ago. And then we stopped growing for a while. That is about to change and they will be be low again. And in another year Piedmont will be where PSA is now... Its all cyclical. To think otherwise is foolish.

Bottom line to ANY new hires looking at the AAG WOs. You should realistically look at the flows as an attrition generator that will help ensure you experience steady movement up the seniority list. By the time the flow gets around to you, this industry is going to be transformed into something very different than it is today. The flows may or may not exist. Envoy, PSA, and Piedmont may or may not exist. None of us know what's going to happen over the next 5 years because the industry is basically going through some uncharted territory with the regional pilot shortage and the retirements at mainline. Pick the airline that works the best for you and your family and don't get caught up worrying about "who is going to flow me to mainline the quickest". Much has changed in the past couple years, and much will change in the next couple.

And from what I've heard new hires say, they didn't choose Piedmont because of your base options and equipment.

Why wouldn't you interview at both. Get a feel for the airlines through the interview process, they should be selling you on them just as much as you are trying to sell them on you. If you get an offer from both, then you have a decision to make. I'm interested to see how it turns out and what you decide. Best wishes.

Agree that it is cyclical. PSA's star was on the rise a year ago, now it is Piedmont's turn. Soon, it will be someone else. (Although I don't beli e AAG will let any of the WOs fail at this point.) My point is, ask questions. Ask if you'll take a pay cut in year two. Ask to see the hire date of the most junior captain. Ask to see the math on the flow. The WOs are a great choice, but do your homework.

Why would you even consider going to PSA? To add to what P4P has outlined above:

Upgrade time dropping like a rock. Likely 2 year Captain's at Envoy very soon.

Flow goes to 40 per month in January.

LGA is a brand new base and we have another one looming. Think sub tropics.

Hire here and your ticket to AA has been punched. One interview and your career is off and running. You'll be in an AA cockpit in under 6 years.

So, why was it you were considering PSA again?

I don't know jack, and i'll be the first to admit it since I'm not on any property. I am interviewing and deciding where I'd like to go, so I don't say this to be antagonistic, just in searching for info.
Isn't quality of life at PSA 10x higher than it is at Envoy? It seems SAP keeps all lineholders as happy as can be with the exact schedules they want, while reserve is long at Envoy, and they junior man the heck out of you, sit you ready reserve a lot, have no variety in trips, etc.

CRJ700 is just another troll account. Don't feed the troll.

I will be interviewing at both. PSA next week and Envoy the following. I had a scheduled interview yesterday at Envoy, but some family stuff came up last minute.

Most of my friends at Envoy are 175 guys that got in during the direct 175 classes. They are happy but the 145 friends say it's turning into XJT 2.0.

I have no desire to be based in Philly. The cost of living is about 3x my home state. Plus the commute would be two leg, if not three.

I'd like to end up at Delta. AA my second followed by United. Any of the big three would be fine.

+1 truth. I'm just trying to hash out the best option for me for the next few years. After debating it in my head I figured I'd ask around outside my circle of pilot friends.

Will do! I've been quite confused by the whole Envoy flow math.

I'll type really slow for you to understand. Quality of life!!!!!!!! What good is AA if it cost you your marriage and keeps you from seeing your kids grow up. Get better schedules and I would say Envoy hands down.

You are crazy if you think we are flowing 40 in January.

Much has been made on this board about schedules at Envoy. I have to be honest. It's LARGELY EXAGGERATED! There are a few anti Envoy types here that are constantly posting anything bad about the company possible and that includes schedules.

I will admit though that there are issues with a few of the sequences. However, these should affect very few pilots and not on every single sequence. As has been posted ad nauseum here, the issues lie in the flight file that is assigned to Envoy by AAG. The lack of midday flying has been one of the central issues Envoy has faced in the past year.

Expect anything that is an issue to improve in January or February as AAG is expected to add midday flying to the Envoy package.

After saying all of that, you are still going to flow to American. And you are going to flow faster than PSA or PDT. These three carriers are the only no interview and automatic flow in the industry. Envoy's flow percentages and contract language are far superior to PSA and PDT as well. If you want AA, then Envoy is where you want to be.

STOP! I'm top 5 FO on my equipment and I'm telling you, they're crap. Just like my 14 HR 4 day last week, then the 2 days off to come back and work a 15 hour trip with a lost day. These schedules are horrific from what I'm used to over the last 8 years.

Please try again.

Duty rigs would solve a lot of this.

BizJet, if your ultimate goal is Delta then why not go to Endeavor?

Mainly as Envoy and PSA are the easiest commute for myself if I decide to stay in my current house.

Delta loves to hire PSA pilots. We have sent more to Delta than AA in the last few months.

I think we may have sent more to Delta than their Endeavor SSP. I kid I kid...

And CR700 paints an incredibly rosey picture. Talk to line pilots at Envoy and see what they have to say. You'll see a different picture.

I've heard a lot about Delta picking up PSA guys.

I'm enjoying this thread. I too am looking hard at Envoy as it is the easiest commute for me.

I'm a former XJT 145 FO was based in IAH and IAD. I came to PSA in 2014. Best move I ever made! SAP is outstanding, i can get the exact schedule off I want plus 100% commutable line for the month.

A lot of what ifs and hypotheticals in there.

"Our flow will increase". Yea...because you said so, or because "they're going to have to sooner or later". We've heard it all before. :rolleyes:

Ask about the demographics when people tell you that. It paints a different picture.

What do you mean by jet 2.0.

From what I can see the two couldn't be more different.