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Originally Posted by Itsajob
(Post 2559257)
What exactly would United gain in a purchase that is desired or that can’t be had for free? They don’t want 50 seat jets, they want big rj’s. The only reason that the 50 seat flying is at the current level is that scope is maxed out and the MEC has said loud and clear that relief is not for sale. The pilots can be had by simply inviting them to interview. All of the regionals are struggling to hire pilots and the quality of what they are getting is scary. Multiple failures in the sim, 100 hours of IOE, etc. There has never been a guarantee of a job with the majors. There has never been job security once you are there. Just look to Eastern, Pan Am, Braniff, etc. The regionals are stepping stones and a great place to gain high quality experience that simply qualifies you to apply to the majors. There has never been an entitlement to a job after a certain number of years in the trenches. The pay and working conditions while building that experience has always been bad, but it seems now that people aren’t willing to “pay their dues”. They want a defined path with a guaranteed result while having a comfortable quality of life during the whole process. This entitlement mindset is resulting in a serious staffing problem at the regional level. My guess is that after UAL signs a new contract with the pilots we will see a significant order for the max7 or CJ series type jet which will park the bulk of the 50 seat fleet. That will stimulate mainline hiring, but it won’t guarantee seats to employees of specific regional companies. The other option is for the company to buy another fleet type that would allow up to 60-70 more large rj’s under the current contract. If the company bought another fleet to replace the 50 seat flying, and if they gave all of the new large rj’s to ExpressJet, the company would be over staffed. I think that a more likely and cost affective outcome is that they would be divided between the companies that currently fly them. This would free up the recently displaced 50 seat pilots to seek employment at the surviving regionals or seek employment elsewhere. This is just a business and better companies have gone away only to be missed by the former employees and aviation geeks.
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The entitlement mindset is a big contributing factor, not the only reason. The stepping stone companies have always been a bad place to be. I sure don’t miss the days of sleeping on the floor in a crash pad with a bunch of other guys, the old reserve regulations where you were continuously in rest until they called you so you could start your 16 hour day, horrible maintenance, extremely low pay, fly or you’re fired, failed sim and you’re fired, much harder training, and the list goes on. Even then there was a much larger pool of people willing to do their time because they knew that it would most likely pay off in the long run. Today people don’t want to do that. The pay still stinks and life at the regionals is no bed of roses, but you’re still flying modern equipment, most with some form of union contract, better maintenance, etc. Times have changed. People don’t want to do all of that work and deal with low quality of life in the process. They want good pay, great work rules, and a defined path to the majors. The path to the majors hasn’t changed, people’s willingness to go down that path has. That is where the entitlement mindset comes in.
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Originally Posted by Itsajob
(Post 2559627)
The entitlement mindset is a big contributing factor, not the only reason. The stepping stone companies have always been a bad place to be. I sure don’t miss the days of sleeping on the floor in a crash pad with a bunch of other guys, the old reserve regulations where you were continuously in rest until they called you so you could start your 16 hour day, horrible maintenance, extremely low pay, fly or you’re fired, failed sim and you’re fired, much harder training, and the list goes on. Even then there was a much larger pool of people willing to do their time because they knew that it would most likely pay off in the long run. Today people don’t want to do that. The pay still stinks and life at the regionals is no bed of roses, but you’re still flying modern equipment, most with some form of union contract, better maintenance, etc. Times have changed. People don’t want to do all of that work and deal with low quality of life in the process. They want good pay, great work rules, and a defined path to the majors. The path to the majors hasn’t changed, people’s willingness to go down that path has. That is where the entitlement mindset comes in.
Demanding that things be the way they should have been all along is not indicative of a sense of entitlement. Further-walking to school uphill both ways does not really wash in the real world. It is at best great bar talk for someone who no longer has to make that walk. Times have changed in more ways than most industry veterans realize. The student loan debt carried by many industry rookies absolutely demands better wages. As far as doing the crashpad thing and commuting-I remember quite a bit of beeching and moaning back in the day when I had to do it. I guess everyone in that crashpad with me had a a sense of entitlement? Or perhaps we did it and beeched and moaned about it, just like kids are doing now. The difference is social media has made them more aware of options and given them a much louder platform from which to beech and moan. Please don't put rose colored glasses on when using hindsight. It is a shame to look back on the dues you paid and not also appreciate the beeching and moaning you were most likely doing. |
My fav is when the oldsters (I'm approaching that remark at 44) preach about paying your dues and entitlement when many of them spent about 18 months at a regional after a year of flight instructing. At least I don't believe that since I had to spend 12.5 years at a regional, 1.5 years 135, and 3 years of flight instructing before that - that everyone else should. Build experience and expertise, sure. Entitlement...that phrase screams "get off my lawn". Okay Gramps.
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by Itsajob
(Post 2559257)
The pay and working conditions while building that experience has always been bad, but it seems now that people aren’t willing to “pay their dues”. They want a defined path with a guaranteed result while having a comfortable quality of life during the whole process. This entitlement mindset is resulting in a serious staffing problem at the regional level.
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Originally Posted by coolyokeluke
(Post 2559744)
My fav is when the oldsters (I'm approaching that remark at 44) preach about paying your dues and entitlement when many of them spent about 18 months at a regional after a year of flight instructing. At least I don't believe that since I had to spend 12.5 years at a regional, 1.5 years 135, and 3 years of flight instructing before that - that everyone else should. Build experience and expertise, sure. Entitlement...that phrase screams "get off my lawn". Okay Gramps.
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk Stinking 40 year olds ... What do they know. |
Really? “Entitlement”? Sure, I feel like I’m more entitled to a legacy job than the good looking girl sitting in the right seat, who’s been in 121 for just over a year, who’s trying to decide between CJO’s from DAL and UA. After 13 years at my current regional, I can’t even get a call. Job fairs. Been there. Trying to talk to and befriend anyone who rides the jumpseat? Done. What now? In what other industry is experience frowned upon?
Ticked that I’m stuck in the regionals? Sure. Entitled? *no* |
Originally Posted by PowderFinger
(Post 2559900)
Turn your music down and get out of my yard.
Stinking 40 year olds ... What do they know. Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk |
The point was that people starting out today don’t want to do all of the work and deal with the low quality of life without a guarantee. There has never been any method to the madness as to who gets called and who doesn’t. I sat and watched people less qualified than me get the call and it was frustrating, but part of the deal. One day the phone did ring, then there was 911, furlough, age 60, mergers, seniority adjustments, etc. One thing that is different now is the volume of pilots that are in the regionals now compared to 20 years ago. Post 911 the regionals swelled while the mainline carriers furloughed. The pendulum is swinging the other way now and mainline will grow and regional feed will shrink. Since there are more people at the regionals and due to merger consolidation at the majors there are fewer open seats available and time at the regionals could be extensive. That doesn’t mean that a person is stuck there. Companies like Jet Blue, Spirit, Atlas, etc are hiring too and pay much better than the regionals. Build your resume as fast as you can, get your 1,000 PIC, and start looking for a place that you could call home if the phone doesn’t ring. In addition to qualifications there is a huge amount of dumb luck involved in getting hired, some will, and some won’t.
As far as improving the situation and not maintaining the way us old farts did it I truly wish you the best. I’d love for people to have it better than we did. I don’t really expect that to change though. The majors are going to put the flying out to the lowest bidder. If your company stands your ground, another will pull the rug out. I think that as the pendulum swings several companies are going to go away, especially any airline that only has 50 seat jets. If the regional feed for all of the majors gets down to a few larger companies they can demand better conditions or the majors can at that time find it cost effective to bring even more of the flying in house. I wish it was different, but it isn’t, wasn’t before, and most likely won’t be any time soon. |
Originally Posted by Itsajob
(Post 2559257)
What exactly would United gain in a purchase that is desired or that can’t be had for free? They don’t want 50 seat jets, they want big rj’s. The only reason that the 50 seat flying is at the current level is that scope is maxed out and the MEC has said loud and clear that relief is not for sale. The pilots can be had by simply inviting them to interview. All of the regionals are struggling to hire pilots and the quality of what they are getting is scary. Multiple failures in the sim, 100 hours of IOE, etc. There has never been a guarantee of a job with the majors. There has never been job security once you are there. Just look to Eastern, Pan Am, Braniff, etc. The regionals are stepping stones and a great place to gain high quality experience that simply qualifies you to apply to the majors. There has never been an entitlement to a job after a certain number of years in the trenches. The pay and working conditions while building that experience has always been bad, but it seems now that people aren’t willing to “pay their dues”. They want a defined path with a guaranteed result while having a comfortable quality of life during the whole process. This entitlement mindset is resulting in a serious staffing problem at the regional level. My guess is that after UAL signs a new contract with the pilots we will see a significant order for the max7 or CJ series type jet which will park the bulk of the 50 seat fleet. That will stimulate mainline hiring, but it won’t guarantee seats to employees of specific regional companies. The other option is for the company to buy another fleet type that would allow up to 60-70 more large rj’s under the current contract. If the company bought another fleet to replace the 50 seat flying, and if they gave all of the new large rj’s to ExpressJet, the company would be over staffed. I think that a more likely and cost affective outcome is that they would be divided between the companies that currently fly them. This would free up the recently displaced 50 seat pilots to seek employment at the surviving regionals or seek employment elsewhere. This is just a business and better companies have gone away only to be missed by the former employees and aviation geeks.
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