Pension increase
03-26-2020 | 09:36 PM
#61
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Once again a false statement. In 2017 they had 3 different types of A plan types that they presented to the pilot group. They published the pros and cons of each. The MEC then decided on this particular one. They also added some extra protections such as “end of career look back”. If you went to any of the meetings or webinars you would have known this.
As for why the company didn't bite outside section 6. Well that should be very apparent. First, why would they give us anything outside section 6? Second, the “new A plan” was more expensive the first 8-10 years. Remember our stock price had fallen from 275$ to 130$ during that period. You think it may have been an issue (with other employees and shareholders) to sign on the dotted line for a massive pension increase (for pilots only) while they slashed pension for mechanics, dispatchers and cut management bonuses during that same period? Once again you are cherry picking and not looking at the big picture. Good thing is me, you and everyone else gets one vote. To each their own.
As for why the company didn't bite outside section 6. Well that should be very apparent. First, why would they give us anything outside section 6? Second, the “new A plan” was more expensive the first 8-10 years. Remember our stock price had fallen from 275$ to 130$ during that period. You think it may have been an issue (with other employees and shareholders) to sign on the dotted line for a massive pension increase (for pilots only) while they slashed pension for mechanics, dispatchers and cut management bonuses during that same period? Once again you are cherry picking and not looking at the big picture. Good thing is me, you and everyone else gets one vote. To each their own.
You need to learn to read. Where did I say that the MEC didn’t state the pros and cons of different options. Tell me which professionals they hired other than Cheiron and Blitz????
As far as the stock price goes, it was $210 when the NC presented their offer and asked to negotiate.
Telling me that I’m not looking at the big picture is funny coming from a guy who bragged about working extra making over $300k as a second or third year FO. Maybe if this VB plan is in our openers, I’ll follow your lead to make extra coin.
03-28-2020 | 04:58 AM
#62
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Joined: Nov 2005
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From: 757 Capt
Thanks for the background Kronan -
Some quick barnapkin math questions:
"PSPP Pension Benefit would've been $5600 - (I come up with $5600 x 25yrs = $140k/pilot retiring this year)
At 200 pilots retiring that's $1.12M in benefits - (I come up with $140k x 200 = $28M this year in new retirement payouts)
At 300 pilots retiring, that's $1.68M in benefits - (I come up with $140k x 300 = $42M this year new retirement payouts)
$104M trust - 30% loss = $72M - $42 in benefits = trouble, especially if the market stays flat or loses value in the coming years!
Also where did the numbers for payroll and A fund contributions come from?
Take a look at the IRS 5500 for our A fund filed May 31 of last year. There are 187,000 participants. its funding is broken down by currently retired participants, active participants, and deceased participants whose beneficiaries are all receiving benefits and all groups' lifetime liabilities funded at well over 100%. Its market and actuarial values are roughly $2B and it is insured and reinsured in multiple ways through Prudential and the PBGC. Because of these facts, this plan actually qualifies as a pension and even if we close up shop, the PBGC insurance policy will pay out enough to us to keep the mortgage paid and the lights on in your house. The Variable plan will never have enough assets to securely cover lifetime liabilities and I'm skeptical if a private insurance company or in the worst case scenario PBGC would cover the plan because it is just a big pooled stock market gamble. Nothing I read or watched included any info on corporate bond investments or insurance swaps or any other actuarial-based investments that protect pension funds while earning required returns. If this isn't a big 401k style fund, we should see some numbers on yearly liabilities and actuarial tables and assumed interest rates to be funded at 100% for all participants. I only remember seeing NAV's and market returns like a would in a B fund. Is this even a pension??
https://www.efast.dol.gov/portal/app...execution=e2s1 (enter 621721435 in the EIN field)
Read this and you will sleep better knowing about our A fund and you will feel like we can ask for an increase in benefits and the Variable fund will give you literal nightmares. (Make sure you read the 5500s for the FedEx Employee's Corporate Pension Plan and not the FedEx Employees Corporate Savings Plan since that is the B Plan)
Thanks! DR K
Some quick barnapkin math questions:
"PSPP Pension Benefit would've been $5600 - (I come up with $5600 x 25yrs = $140k/pilot retiring this year)
At 200 pilots retiring that's $1.12M in benefits - (I come up with $140k x 200 = $28M this year in new retirement payouts)
At 300 pilots retiring, that's $1.68M in benefits - (I come up with $140k x 300 = $42M this year new retirement payouts)
$104M trust - 30% loss = $72M - $42 in benefits = trouble, especially if the market stays flat or loses value in the coming years!
Also where did the numbers for payroll and A fund contributions come from?
Take a look at the IRS 5500 for our A fund filed May 31 of last year. There are 187,000 participants. its funding is broken down by currently retired participants, active participants, and deceased participants whose beneficiaries are all receiving benefits and all groups' lifetime liabilities funded at well over 100%. Its market and actuarial values are roughly $2B and it is insured and reinsured in multiple ways through Prudential and the PBGC. Because of these facts, this plan actually qualifies as a pension and even if we close up shop, the PBGC insurance policy will pay out enough to us to keep the mortgage paid and the lights on in your house. The Variable plan will never have enough assets to securely cover lifetime liabilities and I'm skeptical if a private insurance company or in the worst case scenario PBGC would cover the plan because it is just a big pooled stock market gamble. Nothing I read or watched included any info on corporate bond investments or insurance swaps or any other actuarial-based investments that protect pension funds while earning required returns. If this isn't a big 401k style fund, we should see some numbers on yearly liabilities and actuarial tables and assumed interest rates to be funded at 100% for all participants. I only remember seeing NAV's and market returns like a would in a B fund. Is this even a pension??
https://www.efast.dol.gov/portal/app...execution=e2s1 (enter 621721435 in the EIN field)
Read this and you will sleep better knowing about our A fund and you will feel like we can ask for an increase in benefits and the Variable fund will give you literal nightmares. (Make sure you read the 5500s for the FedEx Employee's Corporate Pension Plan and not the FedEx Employees Corporate Savings Plan since that is the B Plan)
Thanks! DR K
Payroll estimate is a lowball, been lots of complaints from various people about ALPA dues and what we get, so, their complaints of we get this for X millions divided by dues rate gets you a number in excess of what I used.
So, ballpark. Pretty close, but not precise. As food for thought, payroll estimated at 975M pre CBA2015 and that was at 4k pilots.
PSPP A plan funding rate. Based off of what FedEx was contributing to the Portable Pension for the non-pilot potion of those 187,000 participants. (A plan FedEx recently canceled and transitioned to an employer match 401k for 2020)
FedEx had been contributing 8% for Senior employees and 5% for the line swine.
Have to remember that PSPP payments\investments are a year by year thing. When our Pension first began 20+ years ago it wasn't funded for a 25 year payout obligation, but built up over time.
Something that surprised me when I looked at the form 5500 a few days ago (funding levels as of last summer) was the number of participants-that 187,000 and then, towards the very back of it was a section talking about the Portable Pension,
If you don't know, Portable Pension was also a Cash Benefit Pension Plan---which is a cheaper type of a DB than our traditional plan. (See math-benefits of a High 5 versus an accumulate as you go)
As commented, a set percentage of income became an Employees Benefit for the year but rather than sharing in the 7+% the Pension Trust has been earning over time, those funds were "indexed" to a Bond performance number.
The thing that surprised me was that all of the various Pension Promises are commingled into one Big Trust.
Something that makes me wonder a transition to the PSPP would create a new Pension Trust or if it'd be comingled into the existing one
Year by year by year the investments in the VB plan would continue to grow and accumulate.
There's never been anything that springs to life full grown.
Last edited by kronan; 03-28-2020 at 05:19 AM.
03-28-2020 | 05:07 AM
#63
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Joined: Nov 2005
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From: 757 Capt
I don’t think that’s a valid positive to use in favor of our pension. It wasn’t negotiated that way and you’re comparing a pension negotiated 20 years ago to the one at UPS updated very recently. The only reason an FO has the ability to retire at maximum pension payout is because the pension has stagnated while pay rates have not and continue to increase.
Just my opinion that this is the new norm, and that I shouldn't get a 40% improvement to my pension while someone with the same takehome (or greater) only gets a 10% improvement unless they Upgrade.
There's not a Capt rate to the B plan, don't think there should be one for our A plan
03-28-2020 | 05:19 AM
#64
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Joined: Nov 2005
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From: 757 Capt
How in the hell will the Variable Plan satisfy actuarial requirements of a DB plan if it only has 3 years of retirement payouts in the trust? Could it be that this thing is not a DB plan at all and will not be supported by any insurance policies for beneficiary pensions or even worse will evaporate if the company goes under unlike our current actual DB plan? Did the brochures and YouTube videos talk about actuarial funding requirements or just flash the big dollar sign checks that we pilots drool over?
That notional 100+M will last a long time if FedEx had terminated it during this market crash.
VB plan is not, never was, a Money Pension Purchase Plan.
It is a modified Cash Balance Pension Plan, same rules, different funding requirements.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c...ensionplan.asp
03-28-2020 | 05:50 AM
#65
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Joined: Nov 2005
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From: 757 Capt
Tough to extrapolate out.
But just did a simple calc starting with $102, saving$104, with a 2% annual increase at a 6.5% return.
So note, 2% is less than I hope all of our future raises will amount to. The 6.5% is less than our Pension Trust's been returning, historically.
That winds up with $9.1B in 25 years. Consider that our current Pension Trust has $23'sh B...sounds low doesn't it?
But as Dr K pointed out, that 23's B supports the Pension obligations of 187,000 people.
But just did a simple calc starting with $102, saving$104, with a 2% annual increase at a 6.5% return.
So note, 2% is less than I hope all of our future raises will amount to. The 6.5% is less than our Pension Trust's been returning, historically.
That winds up with $9.1B in 25 years. Consider that our current Pension Trust has $23'sh B...sounds low doesn't it?
But as Dr K pointed out, that 23's B supports the Pension obligations of 187,000 people.
03-28-2020 | 06:01 AM
#66
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,065
Likes: 40
From: 767 Captain
Plenty of FO's in the past had the ability to fly C\O with layovers at home and wound up with similar income levels.
Just my opinion that this is the new norm, and that I shouldn't get a 40% improvement to my pension while someone with the same takehome (or greater) only gets a 10% improvement unless they Upgrade.
There's not a Capt rate to the B plan, don't think there should be one for our A plan
Just my opinion that this is the new norm, and that I shouldn't get a 40% improvement to my pension while someone with the same takehome (or greater) only gets a 10% improvement unless they Upgrade.
There's not a Capt rate to the B plan, don't think there should be one for our A plan
However, that disparity is a fact of life if a pension is designed to pay a retiree 50% of the maximum amount our contract allows someone to earn (while complying with IRS limits). That's how the pension was designed in 1999. There wasn't an FO on the property capable of earning enough to stay an FO and get a $130K per year when he retired.
If we designed our pension today using the same model, that would also be true. So the disparity would be there, like it or not.
03-28-2020 | 12:38 PM
#67
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Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,838
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[QUOTE=pinseeker;3013394]You need to learn to read. Where did I say that the MEC didn’t state the pros and cons of different options. Tell me which professionals they hired other than Cheiron and Blitz????
As far as the stock price goes, it was $210 when the NC presented their offer and asked to negotiate.
Telling me that I’m not looking at the big picture is funny coming from a guy who bragged about working extra making over $300k as a second or third year FO. Maybe if this VB plan is in our openers, I’ll follow your lead to make extra coin.[/QUOTE
I guess reading is not your strong suit. Boy where do I start? I didn't say the stock was at 275$ when we made the proposal. I said the stock went form 275 to 130. Remember the offer was being negotiated for over 10 months. I think it was proposed to the company in October of 2018. The framework was being discussed with them for about 10 months prior to that. In late 2017 the stock peaked at 275ish. Also, I didn't make that money as an FO. I wasn't by any means bragging. I posted those numbers on a thread in regards to annual income. I lived in base at the time so making extra isn't hard. Ask your buddies who live in base what they make. I bet they also work many less days. It isn't rocket science. So if you want to throw spears get your facts down first.
Once again WE ALL GET ONE VOTE..................... Its just like normal governance. If you dont like it vote NO and if you do like it vote YES. I will trust financial advisors and professionals over pilots who are self proclaimed professionals any day.
As far as the stock price goes, it was $210 when the NC presented their offer and asked to negotiate.
Telling me that I’m not looking at the big picture is funny coming from a guy who bragged about working extra making over $300k as a second or third year FO. Maybe if this VB plan is in our openers, I’ll follow your lead to make extra coin.[/QUOTE
I guess reading is not your strong suit. Boy where do I start? I didn't say the stock was at 275$ when we made the proposal. I said the stock went form 275 to 130. Remember the offer was being negotiated for over 10 months. I think it was proposed to the company in October of 2018. The framework was being discussed with them for about 10 months prior to that. In late 2017 the stock peaked at 275ish. Also, I didn't make that money as an FO. I wasn't by any means bragging. I posted those numbers on a thread in regards to annual income. I lived in base at the time so making extra isn't hard. Ask your buddies who live in base what they make. I bet they also work many less days. It isn't rocket science. So if you want to throw spears get your facts down first.
Once again WE ALL GET ONE VOTE..................... Its just like normal governance. If you dont like it vote NO and if you do like it vote YES. I will trust financial advisors and professionals over pilots who are self proclaimed professionals any day.
03-28-2020 | 01:03 PM
#68
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,813
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[QUOTE=Noworkallplay;3015222]
Did I say that you said the stock price was $275 on the day of the offer? No, I just said what it was on the day of the offer. I could also care less what the stock price was then, or what the other employees think about any increase we get in our retirement.
I see that you are part of the problem, willing to vote yes and sell this without details, only promises like lie flat seats. Keep selling yourself and making excuses. At least we all know who not to count on.
Still waiting for you to tell us who else the union hired other than Blitzstein and Chieron. Come on Mr get your facts down, enlighten us.
You need to learn to read. Where did I say that the MEC didn’t state the pros and cons of different options. Tell me which professionals they hired other than Cheiron and Blitz????
As far as the stock price goes, it was $210 when the NC presented their offer and asked to negotiate.
Telling me that I’m not looking at the big picture is funny coming from a guy who bragged about working extra making over $300k as a second or third year FO. Maybe if this VB plan is in our openers, I’ll follow your lead to make extra coin.[/QUOTE
I guess reading is not your strong suit. Boy where do I start? I didn't say the stock was at 275$ when we made the proposal. I said the stock went form 275 to 130. Remember the offer was being negotiated for over 10 months. I think it was proposed to the company in October of 2018. The framework was being discussed with them for about 10 months prior to that. In late 2017 the stock peaked at 275ish. Also, I didn't make that money as an FO. I wasn't by any means bragging. I posted those numbers on a thread in regards to annual income. I lived in base at the time so making extra isn't hard. Ask your buddies who live in base what they make. I bet they also work many less days. It isn't rocket science. So if you want to throw spears get your facts down first.
Once again WE ALL GET ONE VOTE..................... Its just like normal governance. If you dont like it vote NO and if you do like it vote YES. I will trust financial advisors and professionals over pilots who are self proclaimed professionals any day.
As far as the stock price goes, it was $210 when the NC presented their offer and asked to negotiate.
Telling me that I’m not looking at the big picture is funny coming from a guy who bragged about working extra making over $300k as a second or third year FO. Maybe if this VB plan is in our openers, I’ll follow your lead to make extra coin.[/QUOTE
I guess reading is not your strong suit. Boy where do I start? I didn't say the stock was at 275$ when we made the proposal. I said the stock went form 275 to 130. Remember the offer was being negotiated for over 10 months. I think it was proposed to the company in October of 2018. The framework was being discussed with them for about 10 months prior to that. In late 2017 the stock peaked at 275ish. Also, I didn't make that money as an FO. I wasn't by any means bragging. I posted those numbers on a thread in regards to annual income. I lived in base at the time so making extra isn't hard. Ask your buddies who live in base what they make. I bet they also work many less days. It isn't rocket science. So if you want to throw spears get your facts down first.
Once again WE ALL GET ONE VOTE..................... Its just like normal governance. If you dont like it vote NO and if you do like it vote YES. I will trust financial advisors and professionals over pilots who are self proclaimed professionals any day.
Did I say that you said the stock price was $275 on the day of the offer? No, I just said what it was on the day of the offer. I could also care less what the stock price was then, or what the other employees think about any increase we get in our retirement.
I see that you are part of the problem, willing to vote yes and sell this without details, only promises like lie flat seats. Keep selling yourself and making excuses. At least we all know who not to count on.
Still waiting for you to tell us who else the union hired other than Blitzstein and Chieron. Come on Mr get your facts down, enlighten us.
Last edited by pinseeker; 03-28-2020 at 01:30 PM.
03-28-2020 | 02:52 PM
#69
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
From: B767 FO
Pension increase
[QUOTE=Noworkallplay;3015222]
That’s probably the only useful thing I’ve seen you post. I trust them too, in fact, other than cherion who’s trying to sell this to us (or should I say has already sold it to our negotiating chairman), hands down the only response I’ve heard any financial advisor (and I’ve talked to 3 independent ones) say regarding this is “there’s no way you guys would be stupid enough to trade away your DB for this!”
Beside all the other reasons I have for not liking it, I’ll trust that advice!
Sorry Pinseeker! That statement was in regard to quoting NoWorkAllPlay!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Beside all the other reasons I have for not liking it, I’ll trust that advice!
Sorry Pinseeker! That statement was in regard to quoting NoWorkAllPlay!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
03-28-2020 | 04:57 PM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,065
Likes: 40
From: 767 Captain
Speaking of weaknesses..... I think it’s safe to say at least one of yours is these things ——-> [ ]
If you’re going to do some kind of kung fu to someone else’s posts when you quote it, at least make sure you got these things in the right place. It’s not that hard. Then you have a normal looking post with the other persons post easily recognized. Then everyone else is trying to fix your problem as they respond. If you still manage to screw it up, look at your post after you submit and if it doesn’t look right go back and fix it. You got 45 minutes before it’s locked and you can’t edit it.
It makes it so much nicer for the reader. Thank you
If you’re going to do some kind of kung fu to someone else’s posts when you quote it, at least make sure you got these things in the right place. It’s not that hard. Then you have a normal looking post with the other persons post easily recognized. Then everyone else is trying to fix your problem as they respond. If you still manage to screw it up, look at your post after you submit and if it doesn’t look right go back and fix it. You got 45 minutes before it’s locked and you can’t edit it.
It makes it so much nicer for the reader. Thank you
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