35 Year FedEx Career
10-03-2021, 06:53 AM
#11
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Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,099
Originally Posted by HoundFlyer
Is there anything in the contract that prevents them from going single pilot or getting rid of us? Does anybody with some knowledge about this subject have any info that might alleviate my concerns? Has FedEx management ever directly spoke to flight crew about this?
Thanks!
10-03-2021, 08:06 AM
#12
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Joined APC: May 2005
Posts: 1,273
Originally Posted by FXLAX
Just to try to answer this part, no, there isn’t a crew compliment clause in the scope section of our contract.
10-03-2021, 10:39 AM
#13
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Joined APC: Aug 2017
Posts: 21
Originally Posted by Fr8Master
Ill take a stab at this.
At my previous job I worked hand in hand with my POI at the FAA and the rest of our certificate management team for our air carrier.
What is being described here is single pilot ops in a large airliner. The testing they are describing appears to be in an ATR. I doubt that they are allowing cargo on this experimental aircraft. As of now there are a few passenger jets (business jets) and turboprops (King Airs, Cheyennes, Merlins) that are able to operate with a single pilot on revenue passenger and cargo operations. These are operated on a Part 135 Air Carrier Certificate and the company must have been authorized that particular OpSpec (A015). Additionally the aircraft must be certificated by the FAA as a single pilot aircraft. Currently all of these aircraft are certificated under Part 23. All of the airlines we and passenger carriers fly are certificated under Part 25. So in order for operators to fly a single pilot airliner the following would have to happen:
Part 25 would have to be amended. The amendment would need to go out for public comment and be debated.
Boeing and Airbus (Embraer too I suppose) would have to develop and get an STC (supplemental type certificate) approved by the FAA and EASA (among other agencies) in order to allow for a currently certified aircraft (B777, A350 etc) to operate with only one crew member since they were originally certified for two crew members. Think the FAA and EASA currently think Boeing deserves a shot at this? I’d expect years of scrutiny followed by a thanks but no thanks.
So let’s pretend it somehow gets approved. Now the operator will have to develop different training programs which, you guessed it, will have to be approved by the FAA after lengthy consideration. After that, operators will have to send every pilot through initial training again, because this would be a different type rating (B777 would be B777S for single pilot). That’s a huge pipeline of expensive training.
Also, there would need to be new MELs for each aircraft for single pilot ops the FAA will require a higher level of functionality for many navigation systems etc. Now you’ll have aircraft being hard down at out stations and a nightmare to recover freight. This will come in later when FedEx and other operators do a risk analysis which includes financial risk to the company.
If all this comes together we will now have to revisit and revise some Part 121 regs. Think the duty time limits and rest requirements will need to be amended? I do! Try staying awake all by yourself during critical periods. Oh yeah…I have to use the restroom, except I can’t because I can’t leave the cockpit. That means it’s STC time all over again so we can invent a pilot seat toilet combo. It has to work just as well for males and females otherwise it won’t get approved. Or maybe a diaper will suffice? Anyway, duty limits and rest requirements will need to change which will again take time.
So the most likely scenario for a single pilot Part 25 airliner would be a clean sheet new design. All controls and switches would need to be easily accessible from the left seat. Currently, neither Boeing or Airbus are publicly developing this type of aircraft. Their primary customers are passenger carriers, freighters have always been an afterthought. Just look at the A350 and the 787. They weren’t even designed with freight versions in mind. As you stated, passenger carriers would be far less likely to get single pilot ops than cargo carriers so the incentive just isn’t there for big aircraft manufacturers to make such a huge gamble on collaborating with governing bodies to design a single pilot airliner and get all
of the necessary regs changed in concert with the design team. Also, the 737 MAX debacle has increased regulators scrutiny of manufacturers significantly.
FedEx won’t foot the bill alone to make such a development because Amazon, UPS, DHL will enjoy the fruits of this investment without so much as a nickel of their own money.
Now let’s talk about risk. The moment a single pilot airliner crashes I can assure you there will be immense pressure to ground that fleet and suspend single pilot ops. Is this a gamble FedEx or any other company would take? FedEx is terrified of the MD-11 fleet being grounded or excluded from certain countries…we didn’t create the worlds longest training program just for fun.
I could write on and on and on, but I’ve got to get going. Long story short, you’re safe at 35 years.
At my previous job I worked hand in hand with my POI at the FAA and the rest of our certificate management team for our air carrier.
What is being described here is single pilot ops in a large airliner. The testing they are describing appears to be in an ATR. I doubt that they are allowing cargo on this experimental aircraft. As of now there are a few passenger jets (business jets) and turboprops (King Airs, Cheyennes, Merlins) that are able to operate with a single pilot on revenue passenger and cargo operations. These are operated on a Part 135 Air Carrier Certificate and the company must have been authorized that particular OpSpec (A015). Additionally the aircraft must be certificated by the FAA as a single pilot aircraft. Currently all of these aircraft are certificated under Part 23. All of the airlines we and passenger carriers fly are certificated under Part 25. So in order for operators to fly a single pilot airliner the following would have to happen:
Part 25 would have to be amended. The amendment would need to go out for public comment and be debated.
Boeing and Airbus (Embraer too I suppose) would have to develop and get an STC (supplemental type certificate) approved by the FAA and EASA (among other agencies) in order to allow for a currently certified aircraft (B777, A350 etc) to operate with only one crew member since they were originally certified for two crew members. Think the FAA and EASA currently think Boeing deserves a shot at this? I’d expect years of scrutiny followed by a thanks but no thanks.
So let’s pretend it somehow gets approved. Now the operator will have to develop different training programs which, you guessed it, will have to be approved by the FAA after lengthy consideration. After that, operators will have to send every pilot through initial training again, because this would be a different type rating (B777 would be B777S for single pilot). That’s a huge pipeline of expensive training.
Also, there would need to be new MELs for each aircraft for single pilot ops the FAA will require a higher level of functionality for many navigation systems etc. Now you’ll have aircraft being hard down at out stations and a nightmare to recover freight. This will come in later when FedEx and other operators do a risk analysis which includes financial risk to the company.
If all this comes together we will now have to revisit and revise some Part 121 regs. Think the duty time limits and rest requirements will need to be amended? I do! Try staying awake all by yourself during critical periods. Oh yeah…I have to use the restroom, except I can’t because I can’t leave the cockpit. That means it’s STC time all over again so we can invent a pilot seat toilet combo. It has to work just as well for males and females otherwise it won’t get approved. Or maybe a diaper will suffice? Anyway, duty limits and rest requirements will need to change which will again take time.
So the most likely scenario for a single pilot Part 25 airliner would be a clean sheet new design. All controls and switches would need to be easily accessible from the left seat. Currently, neither Boeing or Airbus are publicly developing this type of aircraft. Their primary customers are passenger carriers, freighters have always been an afterthought. Just look at the A350 and the 787. They weren’t even designed with freight versions in mind. As you stated, passenger carriers would be far less likely to get single pilot ops than cargo carriers so the incentive just isn’t there for big aircraft manufacturers to make such a huge gamble on collaborating with governing bodies to design a single pilot airliner and get all
of the necessary regs changed in concert with the design team. Also, the 737 MAX debacle has increased regulators scrutiny of manufacturers significantly.
FedEx won’t foot the bill alone to make such a development because Amazon, UPS, DHL will enjoy the fruits of this investment without so much as a nickel of their own money.
Now let’s talk about risk. The moment a single pilot airliner crashes I can assure you there will be immense pressure to ground that fleet and suspend single pilot ops. Is this a gamble FedEx or any other company would take? FedEx is terrified of the MD-11 fleet being grounded or excluded from certain countries…we didn’t create the worlds longest training program just for fun.
I could write on and on and on, but I’ve got to get going. Long story short, you’re safe at 35 years.
10-03-2021, 02:20 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,622
Originally Posted by HoundFlyer
I'm sure this topic has been brought up before but I couldn't find anything recently discussing it. I have an offer from purple and two other legacies and I'm wondering what people are thinking about single-pilot ops and eventually unmanned in the freight world. I've got 35 years of flying left, and when I think about how different things were back in 1986 compared to now I get concerned.
FedEx is where I wanna be but I've seen some information lately that makes it seem entirely possible I won't have a job flying freight in 15 to 25 years. Not as concerned about this in the pax world, at least for my career length. FedEx seems to specifically be investing in this, I'm sure they would love to get rid of us at some point:
https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...t-cargo-plane/
Is there anything in the contract that prevents them from going single pilot or getting rid of us? Does anybody with some knowledge about this subject have any info that might alleviate my concerns? Has FedEx management ever directly spoke to flight crew about this?
Thanks!
FedEx is where I wanna be but I've seen some information lately that makes it seem entirely possible I won't have a job flying freight in 15 to 25 years. Not as concerned about this in the pax world, at least for my career length. FedEx seems to specifically be investing in this, I'm sure they would love to get rid of us at some point:
https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...t-cargo-plane/
Is there anything in the contract that prevents them from going single pilot or getting rid of us? Does anybody with some knowledge about this subject have any info that might alleviate my concerns? Has FedEx management ever directly spoke to flight crew about this?
Thanks!
As far as single pilot operations in a heavy (cargo or passenger), that is a long way off as nobody has rules or even for a cockpit that would allow that. However, Airbus is trying to get their A350 certified for two-pilot long haul operations where one pilot flies and the other rests. Cathay is saying the project will be ready to implement in 2025. I see this as very doable. They already written the requirements for what the airplane must be able to do when a single-pilot is in the cockpit. It is a matter of time before they iron out the wrinkles and the legislatures sign off on it.
If I had to bet money I'd bet that FedEx management came to the negotiation table seeking relief on 3-pilot and 4-pilot operations.
10-03-2021, 03:15 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2014
Posts: 279
Originally Posted by HoundFlyer
I'm sure this topic has been brought up before but I couldn't find anything recently discussing it. I have an offer from purple and two other legacies and I'm wondering what people are thinking about single-pilot ops and eventually unmanned in the freight world. I've got 35 years of flying left, and when I think about how different things were back in 1986 compared to now I get concerned.
FedEx is where I wanna be but I've seen some information lately that makes it seem entirely possible I won't have a job flying freight in 15 to 25 years. Not as concerned about this in the pax world, at least for my career length. FedEx seems to specifically be investing in this, I'm sure they would love to get rid of us at some point:
https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...t-cargo-plane/
Is there anything in the contract that prevents them from going single pilot or getting rid of us? Does anybody with some knowledge about this subject have any info that might alleviate my concerns? Has FedEx management ever directly spoke to flight crew about this?
Thanks!
FedEx is where I wanna be but I've seen some information lately that makes it seem entirely possible I won't have a job flying freight in 15 to 25 years. Not as concerned about this in the pax world, at least for my career length. FedEx seems to specifically be investing in this, I'm sure they would love to get rid of us at some point:
https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...t-cargo-plane/
Is there anything in the contract that prevents them from going single pilot or getting rid of us? Does anybody with some knowledge about this subject have any info that might alleviate my concerns? Has FedEx management ever directly spoke to flight crew about this?
Thanks!
10-04-2021, 06:40 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,728
35 years is a huge time horizon to guess what'll happen in any industry, let alone aviation. FedEx is a hell of a job. If that's where you want to go, I wouldn't be concerned in the least. I'd work on having a Plan B in my back pocket, but that's advice I'd give to anyone in aviation, regardless of the employer.
10-04-2021, 10:12 AM
#20
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Joined APC: Jul 2017
Position: 777
Posts: 130
Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox
If I had to bet money I'd bet that FedEx management came to the negotiation table seeking relief on 3-pilot and 4-pilot operations.
Aside from the 7:35 CBA limit for an RFO, the rest is straight out of the FARs. Why would the company waste negotiating time/capital on changing something in our contract that is still codified in 121?I think all you guys assuming such quick changes to augmented flight ops are going to be available the moment they are requested are a little out of touch. These approvals would have to come from the same agency that took a half-century or more to change the FL250 O2 mask rule.
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