Just a subtle reminder…
05-23-2022, 09:25 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2021
Posts: 446
Originally Posted by Technique Only
Let me start by saying this is my very first post on this forum but I felt it was important for us as a pilot group to reflect on the most recent union’s “win” with the NQN grievance and newest COVID MOU. Also, this outcome gives me very little hope as to how our upcoming CBA will turn out in the future.
As a background, I chose not to tell the company my vaccine status and lost over 40 hours of pay due to NQN in recent months because of it. I fully understood based on the company’s FCIFs that I would be placed in this status and not be able to pick up trips during these footprints. However, prior to these company actions, the union apparently had a verbal agreement with the company that pilots affected by not being able to fly to certain countries would be put in sub which the union emailed us about. This agreement obviously changed rather quickly. I also read the grievance the union had put out in regards to this which spelled out how they wanted the company to pay any pilots that were affected by this NQN status draft pay for those dropped trips in response to this penalizing of pilots by not being able to pick up trips during these footprints. This grievance to the company has now been pulled off ALPA’s website and modified to something totally different now which I don’t understand.
After reading the agreement between our union and the company, I was very upset to learn that the only thing our union got from the company was that any pilots put in NQN would get makeup bank for those dropped trips. That really wasn’t a “win” at all since I was given makeup hours for my trips when they were dropped for NQN by the company at the time it happened. So any previous NQN pilots basically got nothing from this grievance. Also, future trips dropped for NQN will be rewarded with reserve days which goes against seniority in so many ways. The “wins” we got in the grievance resolution only benefit those who have reported their vaccine status and have gotten the vaccine. Our union claims it is a “win” to not have a mandated vaccine but this would be illegal in the state of Tennessee for any Memphis based pilots at the very least based on Title 14 of the Tennessee law code. This most likely is the reason the company has not pursued this mandate prior to this grievance resolution. I would add that it should be illegal that the company put us in NQN status to begin with since this violates Title 14 by saying we are unable to work during those periods based on our vaccine status.
I am truly worried these “wins” the union touts from this grievance show a bad precedent as to what our future CBA will be like. Although we as pilots feel not flying draft, AVA, and selling vacation will help push the company towards a CBA, the union’s grievance resolution shows we will do whatever the company needs just for some extra money. All of these grievance “wins” with the extra pay disruptions and pay for booster shots only help the company in the long run to have more pilots capable of flying more international trips and also the company probably knows more pilots will get the vaccine and put their vaccine status in the system for some extra money. Our union could have really made a stand against the company with this grievance but once again we folded. This result brings back all the memories of our current CBA and how it went down in 2015. There was lots of talk about all of the gray area work rules and how the language needed to be better but we folded very quickly as soon as we were enticed by the big pay raises. I hope our union can change course and fix this way of thinking before we blow another CBA with the company.
As a background, I chose not to tell the company my vaccine status and lost over 40 hours of pay due to NQN in recent months because of it. I fully understood based on the company’s FCIFs that I would be placed in this status and not be able to pick up trips during these footprints. However, prior to these company actions, the union apparently had a verbal agreement with the company that pilots affected by not being able to fly to certain countries would be put in sub which the union emailed us about. This agreement obviously changed rather quickly. I also read the grievance the union had put out in regards to this which spelled out how they wanted the company to pay any pilots that were affected by this NQN status draft pay for those dropped trips in response to this penalizing of pilots by not being able to pick up trips during these footprints. This grievance to the company has now been pulled off ALPA’s website and modified to something totally different now which I don’t understand.
After reading the agreement between our union and the company, I was very upset to learn that the only thing our union got from the company was that any pilots put in NQN would get makeup bank for those dropped trips. That really wasn’t a “win” at all since I was given makeup hours for my trips when they were dropped for NQN by the company at the time it happened. So any previous NQN pilots basically got nothing from this grievance. Also, future trips dropped for NQN will be rewarded with reserve days which goes against seniority in so many ways. The “wins” we got in the grievance resolution only benefit those who have reported their vaccine status and have gotten the vaccine. Our union claims it is a “win” to not have a mandated vaccine but this would be illegal in the state of Tennessee for any Memphis based pilots at the very least based on Title 14 of the Tennessee law code. This most likely is the reason the company has not pursued this mandate prior to this grievance resolution. I would add that it should be illegal that the company put us in NQN status to begin with since this violates Title 14 by saying we are unable to work during those periods based on our vaccine status.
I am truly worried these “wins” the union touts from this grievance show a bad precedent as to what our future CBA will be like. Although we as pilots feel not flying draft, AVA, and selling vacation will help push the company towards a CBA, the union’s grievance resolution shows we will do whatever the company needs just for some extra money. All of these grievance “wins” with the extra pay disruptions and pay for booster shots only help the company in the long run to have more pilots capable of flying more international trips and also the company probably knows more pilots will get the vaccine and put their vaccine status in the system for some extra money. Our union could have really made a stand against the company with this grievance but once again we folded. This result brings back all the memories of our current CBA and how it went down in 2015. There was lots of talk about all of the gray area work rules and how the language needed to be better but we folded very quickly as soon as we were enticed by the big pay raises. I hope our union can change course and fix this way of thinking before we blow another CBA with the company.
In 2013, 14, and 15 as negotiations dragged on, it is true the pilot force was woefully uneducated and after the NC told the MEC they had a "TA in concept," the long poles in the tent fell like they where falling off a tall mule. The pilots were told how much money they were going to make. Sound familiar?
Fellow pilots, Let history be your guide. Yes the pay rates went up with contract 15, but so did the amount of work we did for each and every credit hour earned. Look at your bid packs from 2014 and compare them to today. Are you not working harder for each credit hour earned? How many Benjamins did that cost you each and ever trip to this day. If all you do is turn to section 3 and look at pay rates, you will again do yourself a great disservice.
Treat me professionally and compensate me fairly. That means I need to read the entire contract, ask intelligent questions, and vote only after careful consideration of the entire TA. It is time for every pilot to become responsible for understanding their contract.
Tech only, your concerns are valid. Further, has the NC catalogued the give backs in this transition MOU? If they are so proud of their MOU, which passed the MEC by the way, why can't they be open about the give backs? Further if this is a transition medical MOU where is the Travel MOU transition? Is it coming out soon?
If all you want is more money, and that is your singular barometer, this will be a rinse and repeat TA whenever it happens.
We are well on our way down the same tracks as 2015 with the exception of the MEC finances. Sacrifice quality of life for money. That always works out well for us...
Oh and if the improvements to our pension only gives a 50% replacement ratio for the pilots retiring soon, ask yourself how long has it been since the last improvement to our pension, and calculate when you think it is going to be addresses again in the future. Now how much of an improvement do you want?
05-24-2022, 04:39 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2019
Posts: 447
Originally Posted by BrianH
In 2013, 14, and 15 as negotiations dragged on, it is true the pilot force was woefully uneducated and after the NC told the MEC they had a "TA in concept," the long poles in the tent fell like they where falling off a tall mule. The pilots were told how much money they were going to make. Sound familiar?
Fellow pilots, Let history be your guide. Yes the pay rates went up with contract 15, but so did the amount of work we did for each and every credit hour earned. Look at your bid packs from 2014 and compare them to today. Are you not working harder for each credit hour earned? How many Benjamins did that cost you each and ever trip to this day. If all you do is turn to section 3 and look at pay rates, you will again do yourself a great disservice.
Treat me professionally and compensate me fairly. That means I need to read the entire contract, ask intelligent questions, and vote only after careful consideration of the entire TA. It is time for every pilot to become responsible for understanding their contract.
Tech only, your concerns are valid. Further, has the NC catalogued the give backs in this transition MOU? If they are so proud of their MOU, which passed the MEC by the way, why can't they be open about the give backs? Further if this is a transition medical MOU where is the Travel MOU transition? Is it coming out soon?
If all you want is more money, and that is your singular barometer, this will be a rinse and repeat TA whenever it happens.
We are well on our way down the same tracks as 2015 with the exception of the MEC finances. Sacrifice quality of life for money. That always works out well for us...
Oh and if the improvements to our pension only gives a 50% replacement ratio for the pilots retiring soon, ask yourself how long has it been since the last improvement to our pension, and calculate when you think it is going to be addresses again in the future. Now how much of an improvement do you want?
Fellow pilots, Let history be your guide. Yes the pay rates went up with contract 15, but so did the amount of work we did for each and every credit hour earned. Look at your bid packs from 2014 and compare them to today. Are you not working harder for each credit hour earned? How many Benjamins did that cost you each and ever trip to this day. If all you do is turn to section 3 and look at pay rates, you will again do yourself a great disservice.
Treat me professionally and compensate me fairly. That means I need to read the entire contract, ask intelligent questions, and vote only after careful consideration of the entire TA. It is time for every pilot to become responsible for understanding their contract.
Tech only, your concerns are valid. Further, has the NC catalogued the give backs in this transition MOU? If they are so proud of their MOU, which passed the MEC by the way, why can't they be open about the give backs? Further if this is a transition medical MOU where is the Travel MOU transition? Is it coming out soon?
If all you want is more money, and that is your singular barometer, this will be a rinse and repeat TA whenever it happens.
We are well on our way down the same tracks as 2015 with the exception of the MEC finances. Sacrifice quality of life for money. That always works out well for us...
Oh and if the improvements to our pension only gives a 50% replacement ratio for the pilots retiring soon, ask yourself how long has it been since the last improvement to our pension, and calculate when you think it is going to be addresses again in the future. Now how much of an improvement do you want?
The medical MOU should address the hard decisions we are all forced to make but should not be an opportunity for a windfall for either side.
Our next TA should be the big reward for us pilots. The company has already realized the gains from the pandemic.
05-24-2022, 06:12 AM
#33
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,838
What we are starting to see is people trying to make a windfall by purposely being in noncompliance or unable to operate to places we serve and then expecting the union to get them paid to sit at home. We then have pilots who are required to be revised to cover the flying the above mentioned pilot purposely bid knowing he could not do. Does that seem fair to the pilot being revised? Especially when they could hold a trip that didn’t transition a vaccination requirement country.
05-24-2022, 07:43 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2021
Posts: 446
Being mad about another pilot's perceived good deal is essentially what you guys are calling this. So let's unpack that.
First off not being vac'ed or not wanting to report your status because the company will not protect medical information to a medical standard is not a good deal. So that is out.
The proper protection of our medical data was not addressed in the MOU or the explanation, Why? Did ALPA even try to get our information properly protected? They are not saying. Their job is to represent us to the maximum extent possible. Should they no longer protect a single pilot who get fired? How about a small group? Surely they too will try to fly draft in the future.
No, ALPA's job is a tough one, but it is what they signed up to do. So now back to the issue.
ALPA must defend us all and equally address our issues. How much efforts have gone into fixing FDA issues? But I digress.
So let's talk about the real issue, someone else may get a chance at a draft trip you did not, and you are mad about that. That is called jealousy. It is normal, but it should not have any place here.
Or you keep saying "They" just want to stay at home and get paid draft, Heck, I'll take that. Who wouldn't? In fact, if I get paid draft to stay home I'll even toss in another incentive, I'll stop writing here as well if I get paid draft to stay at home!
So how would I address the issue? First off, I would ask the company to protect the data according to the HIPAA standard. Yes the companies were told they did not have to, but none were bared from protecting the information to that standard. If the company would not, I would let the pilots know we tried. The blame would clearly be on the company. Second. if you cannot fly to a country do to a health requirement, so be it, it is their country. But why would you be okay with a pilot loosing their paycheck because of it. Clearly ALPA cares about dues-able income. That is the only thing they fixed. Get the pilot paid. So let's see if there is a more creative way to fix this.
During the biding process, I can't bid for a SIBA trip if I am not on the SIBA list. So there is a process in place to avoid that issue. Seems pretty similar. So did ALPA ask to have the awesome biding software upgraded to flag the trips that have a restriction so the pilots who are not allowed entry by the host nation could not be awarded those trips. I doubt it. But I believe it would solve this issue. But let's say that is not possible no matter how much money is tossed at the programmers. So what else could we ask for to correct the issue? Well if I protect min days off, and a trip drops, I go into the Conflict Input Window and ask for a different trip if I want to. I would be afforded the opportunity to gain back those credit hours and earn money, that might solve this issue. Let's say you don't like that, You scream "unfair advantage!!" So is there yet another process already in place to address pilot's schedules. Well it turns out there are at least two more options. One could be that your trip is dropped and you are added, in seniority order, to the secondary line generation process. "Scream unfair" again, okay, I got your back. There is yet another process in place after the secondary lines are awarded. Just ask any pilot who finishes training. How are they awarded their flying for the rest of the month, and maybe even the next month depending on when they are released to the line. Any of those answers work for you?
So now you still may not like that. Okay, then how about this. They are dropped from their trip because of the host nation's requirement, then they HAVE the choice to sit reserve, or be given general makeup or PNP to make them whole for the month. And if they sit reserve, they are fully pay protected for the original trip. No need to Fix the "rest of your hours" with general makeup. I doubt anyone will be dumping their records so they can sit reserve too.
Any way you slice it. Every pilot should have the opportunity to earn a paycheck. I doubt anyone who is not vac'ed or does not want more of their medical information "out there" not protected to a medical standard is doing so as part of a diabolical scheme to get to a draft trip before you.
ALPA should have done better, but I doubt anyone on the NC is unvac'ed and in danger of flying to any of the countries in question. They played small ball on this one. And we are in Section 6 negotiations. I believe this may be why "Tech only" is concerned. There are several ways this could have been addressed.
Oh and where is your outrage when a pilot get bumped for training and then has the chance to elect to fly another trip at draft? And how long has that been going on? How hypocritical do you feel now?
First off not being vac'ed or not wanting to report your status because the company will not protect medical information to a medical standard is not a good deal. So that is out.
The proper protection of our medical data was not addressed in the MOU or the explanation, Why? Did ALPA even try to get our information properly protected? They are not saying. Their job is to represent us to the maximum extent possible. Should they no longer protect a single pilot who get fired? How about a small group? Surely they too will try to fly draft in the future.
No, ALPA's job is a tough one, but it is what they signed up to do. So now back to the issue.
ALPA must defend us all and equally address our issues. How much efforts have gone into fixing FDA issues? But I digress.
So let's talk about the real issue, someone else may get a chance at a draft trip you did not, and you are mad about that. That is called jealousy. It is normal, but it should not have any place here.
Or you keep saying "They" just want to stay at home and get paid draft, Heck, I'll take that. Who wouldn't? In fact, if I get paid draft to stay home I'll even toss in another incentive, I'll stop writing here as well if I get paid draft to stay at home!
So how would I address the issue? First off, I would ask the company to protect the data according to the HIPAA standard. Yes the companies were told they did not have to, but none were bared from protecting the information to that standard. If the company would not, I would let the pilots know we tried. The blame would clearly be on the company. Second. if you cannot fly to a country do to a health requirement, so be it, it is their country. But why would you be okay with a pilot loosing their paycheck because of it. Clearly ALPA cares about dues-able income. That is the only thing they fixed. Get the pilot paid. So let's see if there is a more creative way to fix this.
During the biding process, I can't bid for a SIBA trip if I am not on the SIBA list. So there is a process in place to avoid that issue. Seems pretty similar. So did ALPA ask to have the awesome biding software upgraded to flag the trips that have a restriction so the pilots who are not allowed entry by the host nation could not be awarded those trips. I doubt it. But I believe it would solve this issue. But let's say that is not possible no matter how much money is tossed at the programmers. So what else could we ask for to correct the issue? Well if I protect min days off, and a trip drops, I go into the Conflict Input Window and ask for a different trip if I want to. I would be afforded the opportunity to gain back those credit hours and earn money, that might solve this issue. Let's say you don't like that, You scream "unfair advantage!!" So is there yet another process already in place to address pilot's schedules. Well it turns out there are at least two more options. One could be that your trip is dropped and you are added, in seniority order, to the secondary line generation process. "Scream unfair" again, okay, I got your back. There is yet another process in place after the secondary lines are awarded. Just ask any pilot who finishes training. How are they awarded their flying for the rest of the month, and maybe even the next month depending on when they are released to the line. Any of those answers work for you?
So now you still may not like that. Okay, then how about this. They are dropped from their trip because of the host nation's requirement, then they HAVE the choice to sit reserve, or be given general makeup or PNP to make them whole for the month. And if they sit reserve, they are fully pay protected for the original trip. No need to Fix the "rest of your hours" with general makeup. I doubt anyone will be dumping their records so they can sit reserve too.
Any way you slice it. Every pilot should have the opportunity to earn a paycheck. I doubt anyone who is not vac'ed or does not want more of their medical information "out there" not protected to a medical standard is doing so as part of a diabolical scheme to get to a draft trip before you.
ALPA should have done better, but I doubt anyone on the NC is unvac'ed and in danger of flying to any of the countries in question. They played small ball on this one. And we are in Section 6 negotiations. I believe this may be why "Tech only" is concerned. There are several ways this could have been addressed.
Oh and where is your outrage when a pilot get bumped for training and then has the chance to elect to fly another trip at draft? And how long has that been going on? How hypocritical do you feel now?
05-24-2022, 08:14 AM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: MD11 FO
Posts: 1,109
Originally Posted by Technique Only
Let me start by saying this is my very first post on this forum but I felt it was important for us as a pilot group to reflect on the most recent union’s “win” with the NQN grievance and newest COVID MOU. Also, this outcome gives me very little hope as to how our upcoming CBA will turn out in the future.
As a background, I chose not to tell the company my vaccine status and lost over 40 hours of pay due to NQN in recent months because of it. I fully understood based on the company’s FCIFs that I would be placed in this status and not be able to pick up trips during these footprints. However, prior to these company actions, the union apparently had a verbal agreement with the company that pilots affected by not being able to fly to certain countries would be put in sub which the union emailed us about. This agreement obviously changed rather quickly. I also read the grievance the union had put out in regards to this which spelled out how they wanted the company to pay any pilots that were affected by this NQN status draft pay for those dropped trips in response to this penalizing of pilots by not being able to pick up trips during these footprints. This grievance to the company has now been pulled off ALPA’s website and modified to something totally different now which I don’t understand.
After reading the agreement between our union and the company, I was very upset to learn that the only thing our union got from the company was that any pilots put in NQN would get makeup bank for those dropped trips. That really wasn’t a “win” at all since I was given makeup hours for my trips when they were dropped for NQN by the company at the time it happened. So any previous NQN pilots basically got nothing from this grievance. Also, future trips dropped for NQN will be rewarded with reserve days which goes against seniority in so many ways. The “wins” we got in the grievance resolution only benefit those who have reported their vaccine status and have gotten the vaccine. Our union claims it is a “win” to not have a mandated vaccine but this would be illegal in the state of Tennessee for any Memphis based pilots at the very least based on Title 14 of the Tennessee law code. This most likely is the reason the company has not pursued this mandate prior to this grievance resolution. I would add that it should be illegal that the company put us in NQN status to begin with since this violates Title 14 by saying we are unable to work during those periods based on our vaccine status.
I am truly worried these “wins” the union touts from this grievance show a bad precedent as to what our future CBA will be like. Although we as pilots feel not flying draft, AVA, and selling vacation will help push the company towards a CBA, the union’s grievance resolution shows we will do whatever the company needs just for some extra money. All of these grievance “wins” with the extra pay disruptions and pay for booster shots only help the company in the long run to have more pilots capable of flying more international trips and also the company probably knows more pilots will get the vaccine and put their vaccine status in the system for some extra money. Our union could have really made a stand against the company with this grievance but once again we folded. This result brings back all the memories of our current CBA and how it went down in 2015. There was lots of talk about all of the gray area work rules and how the language needed to be better but we folded very quickly as soon as we were enticed by the big pay raises. I hope our union can change course and fix this way of thinking before we blow another CBA with the company.
As a background, I chose not to tell the company my vaccine status and lost over 40 hours of pay due to NQN in recent months because of it. I fully understood based on the company’s FCIFs that I would be placed in this status and not be able to pick up trips during these footprints. However, prior to these company actions, the union apparently had a verbal agreement with the company that pilots affected by not being able to fly to certain countries would be put in sub which the union emailed us about. This agreement obviously changed rather quickly. I also read the grievance the union had put out in regards to this which spelled out how they wanted the company to pay any pilots that were affected by this NQN status draft pay for those dropped trips in response to this penalizing of pilots by not being able to pick up trips during these footprints. This grievance to the company has now been pulled off ALPA’s website and modified to something totally different now which I don’t understand.
After reading the agreement between our union and the company, I was very upset to learn that the only thing our union got from the company was that any pilots put in NQN would get makeup bank for those dropped trips. That really wasn’t a “win” at all since I was given makeup hours for my trips when they were dropped for NQN by the company at the time it happened. So any previous NQN pilots basically got nothing from this grievance. Also, future trips dropped for NQN will be rewarded with reserve days which goes against seniority in so many ways. The “wins” we got in the grievance resolution only benefit those who have reported their vaccine status and have gotten the vaccine. Our union claims it is a “win” to not have a mandated vaccine but this would be illegal in the state of Tennessee for any Memphis based pilots at the very least based on Title 14 of the Tennessee law code. This most likely is the reason the company has not pursued this mandate prior to this grievance resolution. I would add that it should be illegal that the company put us in NQN status to begin with since this violates Title 14 by saying we are unable to work during those periods based on our vaccine status.
I am truly worried these “wins” the union touts from this grievance show a bad precedent as to what our future CBA will be like. Although we as pilots feel not flying draft, AVA, and selling vacation will help push the company towards a CBA, the union’s grievance resolution shows we will do whatever the company needs just for some extra money. All of these grievance “wins” with the extra pay disruptions and pay for booster shots only help the company in the long run to have more pilots capable of flying more international trips and also the company probably knows more pilots will get the vaccine and put their vaccine status in the system for some extra money. Our union could have really made a stand against the company with this grievance but once again we folded. This result brings back all the memories of our current CBA and how it went down in 2015. There was lots of talk about all of the gray area work rules and how the language needed to be better but we folded very quickly as soon as we were enticed by the big pay raises. I hope our union can change course and fix this way of thinking before we blow another CBA with the company.
Not to mention that the vaccinated have been taking the brunt for the unvax for sometime. We would have been allowed out in Singapore a month earlier had we not continued to have this 1/3 crew force unvaxed. I suspect it'd be a lot easier to eventually get out in Japan and Taiwan as well with a fully vax crew force. But hey don't let that damn contract get in the way of what YOU feel you are entitled to.
05-24-2022, 08:39 AM
#36
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,838
Originally Posted by Tuck
I'm confused as to why you think you were owed anything? Current CBA language has Company set requirements for flying - they have chosen to include vax in 26.M countries - that seems totally reasonable and absolutely within their right. You bid for a trip you couldn't fly - that's a clear violation of the CBA for beginners. So I guess your choice was to leave yourself up to the whims of the company which could be NQN, no make up, could be discipline, could be all sorts of things OR the benefits ALPA was able to get you.
Not to mention that the vaccinated have been taking the brunt for the unvax for sometime. We would have been allowed out in Singapore a month earlier had we not continued to have this 1/3 crew force unvaxed. I suspect it'd be a lot easier to eventually get out in Japan and Taiwan as well with a fully vax crew force. But hey don't let that damn contract get in the way of what YOU feel you are entitled to.
Not to mention that the vaccinated have been taking the brunt for the unvax for sometime. We would have been allowed out in Singapore a month earlier had we not continued to have this 1/3 crew force unvaxed. I suspect it'd be a lot easier to eventually get out in Japan and Taiwan as well with a fully vax crew force. But hey don't let that damn contract get in the way of what YOU feel you are entitled to.
This attitude of ME ME ME is sickening. I want to be able to do whatever I want and everyone should pick up the slack for me while I sit at home with full pay protection. The heck with the pilots who get revised to cover what I purposely bid that I couldn’t fly. What a self serving attitude.
The new MOU pays you for the vaccination information like many said they wanted. We keep pay protection for Covid positive. We keep pay protection for days off caught in quarantine international outside of a trip. We get paid for testing when required. Should we just go without an agreement and back to current contract using sick bank hours?
05-24-2022, 11:47 AM
#37
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,838
Originally Posted by BrianH
In 2013, 14, and 15 as negotiations dragged on, it is true the pilot force was woefully uneducated and after the NC told the MEC they had a "TA in concept," the long poles in the tent fell like they where falling off a tall mule. The pilots were told how much money they were going to make. Sound familiar?
Fellow pilots, Let history be your guide. Yes the pay rates went up with contract 15, but so did the amount of work we did for each and every credit hour earned. Look at your bid packs from 2014 and compare them to today. Are you not working harder for each credit hour earned? How many Benjamins did that cost you each and ever trip to this day. If all you do is turn to section 3 and look at pay rates, you will again do yourself a great disservice.
Treat me professionally and compensate me fairly. That means I need to read the entire contract, ask intelligent questions, and vote only after careful consideration of the entire TA. It is time for every pilot to become responsible for understanding their contract.
Tech only, your concerns are valid. Further, has the NC catalogued the give backs in this transition MOU? If they are so proud of their MOU, which passed the MEC by the way, why can't they be open about the give backs? Further if this is a transition medical MOU where is the Travel MOU transition? Is it coming out soon?
If all you want is more money, and that is your singular barometer, this will be a rinse and repeat TA whenever it happens.
We are well on our way down the same tracks as 2015 with the exception of the MEC finances. Sacrifice quality of life for money. That always works out well for us...
Oh and if the improvements to our pension only gives a 50% replacement ratio for the pilots retiring soon, ask yourself how long has it been since the last improvement to our pension, and calculate when you think it is going to be addresses again in the future. Now how much of an improvement do you want?
Fellow pilots, Let history be your guide. Yes the pay rates went up with contract 15, but so did the amount of work we did for each and every credit hour earned. Look at your bid packs from 2014 and compare them to today. Are you not working harder for each credit hour earned? How many Benjamins did that cost you each and ever trip to this day. If all you do is turn to section 3 and look at pay rates, you will again do yourself a great disservice.
Treat me professionally and compensate me fairly. That means I need to read the entire contract, ask intelligent questions, and vote only after careful consideration of the entire TA. It is time for every pilot to become responsible for understanding their contract.
Tech only, your concerns are valid. Further, has the NC catalogued the give backs in this transition MOU? If they are so proud of their MOU, which passed the MEC by the way, why can't they be open about the give backs? Further if this is a transition medical MOU where is the Travel MOU transition? Is it coming out soon?
If all you want is more money, and that is your singular barometer, this will be a rinse and repeat TA whenever it happens.
We are well on our way down the same tracks as 2015 with the exception of the MEC finances. Sacrifice quality of life for money. That always works out well for us...
Oh and if the improvements to our pension only gives a 50% replacement ratio for the pilots retiring soon, ask yourself how long has it been since the last improvement to our pension, and calculate when you think it is going to be addresses again in the future. Now how much of an improvement do you want?
05-24-2022, 04:24 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2019
Posts: 447
Originally Posted by BrianH
Being mad about another pilot's perceived good deal is essentially what you guys are calling this. So let's unpack that.
First off not being vac'ed or not wanting to report your status because the company will not protect medical information to a medical standard is not a good deal. So that is out.
The proper protection of our medical data was not addressed in the MOU or the explanation, Why? Did ALPA even try to get our information properly protected? They are not saying. Their job is to represent us to the maximum extent possible. Should they no longer protect a single pilot who get fired? How about a small group? Surely they too will try to fly draft in the future.
No, ALPA's job is a tough one, but it is what they signed up to do. So now back to the issue.
ALPA must defend us all and equally address our issues. How much efforts have gone into fixing FDA issues? But I digress.
So let's talk about the real issue, someone else may get a chance at a draft trip you did not, and you are mad about that. That is called jealousy. It is normal, but it should not have any place here.
Or you keep saying "They" just want to stay at home and get paid draft, Heck, I'll take that. Who wouldn't? In fact, if I get paid draft to stay home I'll even toss in another incentive, I'll stop writing here as well if I get paid draft to stay at home!
So how would I address the issue? First off, I would ask the company to protect the data according to the HIPAA standard. Yes the companies were told they did not have to, but none were bared from protecting the information to that standard. If the company would not, I would let the pilots know we tried. The blame would clearly be on the company. Second. if you cannot fly to a country do to a health requirement, so be it, it is their country. But why would you be okay with a pilot loosing their paycheck because of it. Clearly ALPA cares about dues-able income. That is the only thing they fixed. Get the pilot paid. So let's see if there is a more creative way to fix this.
During the biding process, I can't bid for a SIBA trip if I am not on the SIBA list. So there is a process in place to avoid that issue. Seems pretty similar. So did ALPA ask to have the awesome biding software upgraded to flag the trips that have a restriction so the pilots who are not allowed entry by the host nation could not be awarded those trips. I doubt it. But I believe it would solve this issue. But let's say that is not possible no matter how much money is tossed at the programmers. So what else could we ask for to correct the issue? Well if I protect min days off, and a trip drops, I go into the Conflict Input Window and ask for a different trip if I want to. I would be afforded the opportunity to gain back those credit hours and earn money, that might solve this issue. Let's say you don't like that, You scream "unfair advantage!!" So is there yet another process already in place to address pilot's schedules. Well it turns out there are at least two more options. One could be that your trip is dropped and you are added, in seniority order, to the secondary line generation process. "Scream unfair" again, okay, I got your back. There is yet another process in place after the secondary lines are awarded. Just ask any pilot who finishes training. How are they awarded their flying for the rest of the month, and maybe even the next month depending on when they are released to the line. Any of those answers work for you?
So now you still may not like that. Okay, then how about this. They are dropped from their trip because of the host nation's requirement, then they HAVE the choice to sit reserve, or be given general makeup or PNP to make them whole for the month. And if they sit reserve, they are fully pay protected for the original trip. No need to Fix the "rest of your hours" with general makeup. I doubt anyone will be dumping their records so they can sit reserve too.
Any way you slice it. Every pilot should have the opportunity to earn a paycheck. I doubt anyone who is not vac'ed or does not want more of their medical information "out there" not protected to a medical standard is doing so as part of a diabolical scheme to get to a draft trip before you.
ALPA should have done better, but I doubt anyone on the NC is unvac'ed and in danger of flying to any of the countries in question. They played small ball on this one. And we are in Section 6 negotiations. I believe this may be why "Tech only" is concerned. There are several ways this could have been addressed.
Oh and where is your outrage when a pilot get bumped for training and then has the chance to elect to fly another trip at draft? And how long has that been going on? How hypocritical do you feel now?
First off not being vac'ed or not wanting to report your status because the company will not protect medical information to a medical standard is not a good deal. So that is out.
The proper protection of our medical data was not addressed in the MOU or the explanation, Why? Did ALPA even try to get our information properly protected? They are not saying. Their job is to represent us to the maximum extent possible. Should they no longer protect a single pilot who get fired? How about a small group? Surely they too will try to fly draft in the future.
No, ALPA's job is a tough one, but it is what they signed up to do. So now back to the issue.
ALPA must defend us all and equally address our issues. How much efforts have gone into fixing FDA issues? But I digress.
So let's talk about the real issue, someone else may get a chance at a draft trip you did not, and you are mad about that. That is called jealousy. It is normal, but it should not have any place here.
Or you keep saying "They" just want to stay at home and get paid draft, Heck, I'll take that. Who wouldn't? In fact, if I get paid draft to stay home I'll even toss in another incentive, I'll stop writing here as well if I get paid draft to stay at home!
So how would I address the issue? First off, I would ask the company to protect the data according to the HIPAA standard. Yes the companies were told they did not have to, but none were bared from protecting the information to that standard. If the company would not, I would let the pilots know we tried. The blame would clearly be on the company. Second. if you cannot fly to a country do to a health requirement, so be it, it is their country. But why would you be okay with a pilot loosing their paycheck because of it. Clearly ALPA cares about dues-able income. That is the only thing they fixed. Get the pilot paid. So let's see if there is a more creative way to fix this.
During the biding process, I can't bid for a SIBA trip if I am not on the SIBA list. So there is a process in place to avoid that issue. Seems pretty similar. So did ALPA ask to have the awesome biding software upgraded to flag the trips that have a restriction so the pilots who are not allowed entry by the host nation could not be awarded those trips. I doubt it. But I believe it would solve this issue. But let's say that is not possible no matter how much money is tossed at the programmers. So what else could we ask for to correct the issue? Well if I protect min days off, and a trip drops, I go into the Conflict Input Window and ask for a different trip if I want to. I would be afforded the opportunity to gain back those credit hours and earn money, that might solve this issue. Let's say you don't like that, You scream "unfair advantage!!" So is there yet another process already in place to address pilot's schedules. Well it turns out there are at least two more options. One could be that your trip is dropped and you are added, in seniority order, to the secondary line generation process. "Scream unfair" again, okay, I got your back. There is yet another process in place after the secondary lines are awarded. Just ask any pilot who finishes training. How are they awarded their flying for the rest of the month, and maybe even the next month depending on when they are released to the line. Any of those answers work for you?
So now you still may not like that. Okay, then how about this. They are dropped from their trip because of the host nation's requirement, then they HAVE the choice to sit reserve, or be given general makeup or PNP to make them whole for the month. And if they sit reserve, they are fully pay protected for the original trip. No need to Fix the "rest of your hours" with general makeup. I doubt anyone will be dumping their records so they can sit reserve too.
Any way you slice it. Every pilot should have the opportunity to earn a paycheck. I doubt anyone who is not vac'ed or does not want more of their medical information "out there" not protected to a medical standard is doing so as part of a diabolical scheme to get to a draft trip before you.
ALPA should have done better, but I doubt anyone on the NC is unvac'ed and in danger of flying to any of the countries in question. They played small ball on this one. And we are in Section 6 negotiations. I believe this may be why "Tech only" is concerned. There are several ways this could have been addressed.
Oh and where is your outrage when a pilot get bumped for training and then has the chance to elect to fly another trip at draft? And how long has that been going on? How hypocritical do you feel now?
It's not jealousy that they can fly draft, i could fly draft, you could fly draft. But not inputting vaccination status shouldn't be a benefit, full stop. Is this MOU perfect, no. Will our next TA be perfect, no! But its an agreement and we got it close. Not everyone is going to be happy, but glad we got people "who have never posted before" coming in to divide the pilot group. The MEC chair actually said this exact thing would happen at a recent PUB event. WHO is the enemy here, ALPA? The Company? Or ourselves!?
05-24-2022, 09:46 PM
#39
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,838
Originally Posted by BrianH
Being mad about another pilot's perceived good deal is essentially what you guys are calling this. So let's unpack that.
First off not being vac'ed or not wanting to report your status because the company will not protect medical information to a medical standard is not a good deal. So that is out.
The proper protection of our medical data was not addressed in the MOU or the explanation, Why? Did ALPA even try to get our information properly protected? They are not saying. Their job is to represent us to the maximum extent possible. Should they no longer protect a single pilot who get fired? How about a small group? Surely they too will try to fly draft in the future.
No, ALPA's job is a tough one, but it is what they signed up to do. So now back to the issue.
ALPA must defend us all and equally address our issues. How much efforts have gone into fixing FDA issues? But I digress.
So let's talk about the real issue, someone else may get a chance at a draft trip you did not, and you are mad about that. That is called jealousy. It is normal, but it should not have any place here.
Or you keep saying "They" just want to stay at home and get paid draft, Heck, I'll take that. Who wouldn't? In fact, if I get paid draft to stay home I'll even toss in another incentive, I'll stop writing here as well if I get paid draft to stay at home!
So how would I address the issue? First off, I would ask the company to protect the data according to the HIPAA standard. Yes the companies were told they did not have to, but none were bared from protecting the information to that standard. If the company would not, I would let the pilots know we tried. The blame would clearly be on the company. Second. if you cannot fly to a country do to a health requirement, so be it, it is their country. But why would you be okay with a pilot loosing their paycheck because of it. Clearly ALPA cares about dues-able income. That is the only thing they fixed. Get the pilot paid. So let's see if there is a more creative way to fix this.
During the biding process, I can't bid for a SIBA trip if I am not on the SIBA list. So there is a process in place to avoid that issue. Seems pretty similar. So did ALPA ask to have the awesome biding software upgraded to flag the trips that have a restriction so the pilots who are not allowed entry by the host nation could not be awarded those trips. I doubt it. But I believe it would solve this issue. But let's say that is not possible no matter how much money is tossed at the programmers. So what else could we ask for to correct the issue? Well if I protect min days off, and a trip drops, I go into the Conflict Input Window and ask for a different trip if I want to. I would be afforded the opportunity to gain back those credit hours and earn money, that might solve this issue. Let's say you don't like that, You scream "unfair advantage!!" So is there yet another process already in place to address pilot's schedules. Well it turns out there are at least two more options. One could be that your trip is dropped and you are added, in seniority order, to the secondary line generation process. "Scream unfair" again, okay, I got your back. There is yet another process in place after the secondary lines are awarded. Just ask any pilot who finishes training. How are they awarded their flying for the rest of the month, and maybe even the next month depending on when they are released to the line. Any of those answers work for you?
So now you still may not like that. Okay, then how about this. They are dropped from their trip because of the host nation's requirement, then they HAVE the choice to sit reserve, or be given general makeup or PNP to make them whole for the month. And if they sit reserve, they are fully pay protected for the original trip. No need to Fix the "rest of your hours" with general makeup. I doubt anyone will be dumping their records so they can sit reserve too.
Any way you slice it. Every pilot should have the opportunity to earn a paycheck. I doubt anyone who is not vac'ed or does not want more of their medical information "out there" not protected to a medical standard is doing so as part of a diabolical scheme to get to a draft trip before you.
ALPA should have done better, but I doubt anyone on the NC is unvac'ed and in danger of flying to any of the countries in question. They played small ball on this one. And we are in Section 6 negotiations. I believe this may be why "Tech only" is concerned. There are several ways this could have been addressed.
Oh and where is your outrage when a pilot get bumped for training and then has the chance to elect to fly another trip at draft? And how long has that been going on? How hypocritical do you feel now?
First off not being vac'ed or not wanting to report your status because the company will not protect medical information to a medical standard is not a good deal. So that is out.
The proper protection of our medical data was not addressed in the MOU or the explanation, Why? Did ALPA even try to get our information properly protected? They are not saying. Their job is to represent us to the maximum extent possible. Should they no longer protect a single pilot who get fired? How about a small group? Surely they too will try to fly draft in the future.
No, ALPA's job is a tough one, but it is what they signed up to do. So now back to the issue.
ALPA must defend us all and equally address our issues. How much efforts have gone into fixing FDA issues? But I digress.
So let's talk about the real issue, someone else may get a chance at a draft trip you did not, and you are mad about that. That is called jealousy. It is normal, but it should not have any place here.
Or you keep saying "They" just want to stay at home and get paid draft, Heck, I'll take that. Who wouldn't? In fact, if I get paid draft to stay home I'll even toss in another incentive, I'll stop writing here as well if I get paid draft to stay at home!
So how would I address the issue? First off, I would ask the company to protect the data according to the HIPAA standard. Yes the companies were told they did not have to, but none were bared from protecting the information to that standard. If the company would not, I would let the pilots know we tried. The blame would clearly be on the company. Second. if you cannot fly to a country do to a health requirement, so be it, it is their country. But why would you be okay with a pilot loosing their paycheck because of it. Clearly ALPA cares about dues-able income. That is the only thing they fixed. Get the pilot paid. So let's see if there is a more creative way to fix this.
During the biding process, I can't bid for a SIBA trip if I am not on the SIBA list. So there is a process in place to avoid that issue. Seems pretty similar. So did ALPA ask to have the awesome biding software upgraded to flag the trips that have a restriction so the pilots who are not allowed entry by the host nation could not be awarded those trips. I doubt it. But I believe it would solve this issue. But let's say that is not possible no matter how much money is tossed at the programmers. So what else could we ask for to correct the issue? Well if I protect min days off, and a trip drops, I go into the Conflict Input Window and ask for a different trip if I want to. I would be afforded the opportunity to gain back those credit hours and earn money, that might solve this issue. Let's say you don't like that, You scream "unfair advantage!!" So is there yet another process already in place to address pilot's schedules. Well it turns out there are at least two more options. One could be that your trip is dropped and you are added, in seniority order, to the secondary line generation process. "Scream unfair" again, okay, I got your back. There is yet another process in place after the secondary lines are awarded. Just ask any pilot who finishes training. How are they awarded their flying for the rest of the month, and maybe even the next month depending on when they are released to the line. Any of those answers work for you?
So now you still may not like that. Okay, then how about this. They are dropped from their trip because of the host nation's requirement, then they HAVE the choice to sit reserve, or be given general makeup or PNP to make them whole for the month. And if they sit reserve, they are fully pay protected for the original trip. No need to Fix the "rest of your hours" with general makeup. I doubt anyone will be dumping their records so they can sit reserve too.
Any way you slice it. Every pilot should have the opportunity to earn a paycheck. I doubt anyone who is not vac'ed or does not want more of their medical information "out there" not protected to a medical standard is doing so as part of a diabolical scheme to get to a draft trip before you.
ALPA should have done better, but I doubt anyone on the NC is unvac'ed and in danger of flying to any of the countries in question. They played small ball on this one. And we are in Section 6 negotiations. I believe this may be why "Tech only" is concerned. There are several ways this could have been addressed.
Oh and where is your outrage when a pilot get bumped for training and then has the chance to elect to fly another trip at draft? And how long has that been going on? How hypocritical do you feel now?
The pilot does have the ability to earn a paycheck if he decides to purposely bid in conflict with his vaccination status. They get reserve days and make up credit. Giving them access to anything other than that would be giving them an advantage they otherwise wouldn’t have.
Isn’t the point to keep mandatory vaccinations off property? They have done this successfully and continued to add pay protection and other pay provisions. Well done in my opinion. I guess the easiest way to resolve this is just go back to current contract language and let everybody’s sick bank get deducted. Is that a better solution? Well done by the union threading the needle knowing you cant make every subcontractor happy.
