Collective Bargaining Paths..the way forward
07-14-2023 | 09:34 AM
#1
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Collective Bargaining Paths..the way forward
No result of Collective bargaining is palatable to everyone in the group...In fact, most everyone in the group may have some gripe about the quality of the taste, amount, or texture....but it is successful if it meets the nutritional requirements of the majority of the group.
Like they say, a horse designed by committee results in a camel. You can ride a camel but someone has to sit on the hump....Best bet is to trade places so no one is riding the hump too long. The idea is better to ride the hump once in a while together then to walk alone.
The way the 2015 Contract passed followed these five stages:
Denial..... Anger......Bargaining....Depression...Acceptance
Denial: I can't believe they let this out of committee.....This is NOT the best we could do....This is NOT what we wanted or told would happen...This NOT the best we could do
Anger: "I'm having my future sold out by XXXXX group" I'm being sacrificed for XXXXXX...Even though everyone is saying 'NO'.....deep in my heart I know this will pass and I'm getting screwed"
Bargaining: "well maybe we can take the good parts of this and just add a little more....lets turn this down and then we get the company to do this XXXXX
Depression/Victimhood: My career at FDX is over basically, I got screwed....I failed.
Acceptance: Well, this is not what I wanted....I am disappointed, but I'll take the gain and move on as there are other things in my life that share importance. I will work like hell to make it better and not engage in self destructive behavior that weakens us in the long run.
If you think some of us are "Sell outs", I assure you that we're not, we've just been through this before and we work through the stages a lot faster. Even guys at Delta will do this as they discover things after ratification they thought were great, but were in fine print. Like the Purple and Silver seniority integration where all those guys claim to have been screwed....I figure it might have been fairly equitably done because I didn't meet a single pilot who said "boy I got a better deal than most on the seniority integration".
If the TA passes, and you are a "no" voter, you'll have to work through those stages and hopefully get to Acceptance (note I didn't say capitulation).
If the TA fails, the same applies.......
I remember when the Age 65 thing passed, we had some back seat guys high-fiving each other when they got re-awarded their Captain seat in front of guys getting excess to lower paying positions...and gloating. Poor form.
Regardless of the outcome, please avoid "Spiking the football"...if the vote goes the way you wish....someone will be disappointed and angry. Spiking the football is poor form and bad for unity.
I'm not trying to sell a "Yes" anymore than some are trying to sell a "No".....I was attempting to have a discussion about my thoughts and rationale. This place has devolved into "chewing gum for the brain".....it seems it's like a child yelling into an empty room just to hear its voice bounce around. I'm not convinced this TA will Fail.....remember, this forum and others like it are influenced by self-selection bias.....just like most people do not go on to review an average product on Amazon.......
I may stop in periodically and lurk, but I will refrain from responding (No matter how hard Anthrax may taunt me
)...I might fail at that as my narcissistic tendencies sometimes rule the day.
Hopefully a fruitful and thoughtful discussion will ensue.....and not self-destructive behavior. An honest "hot wash" of the TA results that dispassionately discusses how the vote resulted without assigning blame would be a good idea for any future negotiation.
Like they say, a horse designed by committee results in a camel. You can ride a camel but someone has to sit on the hump....Best bet is to trade places so no one is riding the hump too long. The idea is better to ride the hump once in a while together then to walk alone.
The way the 2015 Contract passed followed these five stages:
Denial..... Anger......Bargaining....Depression...Acceptance
Denial: I can't believe they let this out of committee.....This is NOT the best we could do....This is NOT what we wanted or told would happen...This NOT the best we could do
Anger: "I'm having my future sold out by XXXXX group" I'm being sacrificed for XXXXXX...Even though everyone is saying 'NO'.....deep in my heart I know this will pass and I'm getting screwed"
Bargaining: "well maybe we can take the good parts of this and just add a little more....lets turn this down and then we get the company to do this XXXXX
Depression/Victimhood: My career at FDX is over basically, I got screwed....I failed.
Acceptance: Well, this is not what I wanted....I am disappointed, but I'll take the gain and move on as there are other things in my life that share importance. I will work like hell to make it better and not engage in self destructive behavior that weakens us in the long run.
If you think some of us are "Sell outs", I assure you that we're not, we've just been through this before and we work through the stages a lot faster. Even guys at Delta will do this as they discover things after ratification they thought were great, but were in fine print. Like the Purple and Silver seniority integration where all those guys claim to have been screwed....I figure it might have been fairly equitably done because I didn't meet a single pilot who said "boy I got a better deal than most on the seniority integration".
If the TA passes, and you are a "no" voter, you'll have to work through those stages and hopefully get to Acceptance (note I didn't say capitulation).
If the TA fails, the same applies.......
I remember when the Age 65 thing passed, we had some back seat guys high-fiving each other when they got re-awarded their Captain seat in front of guys getting excess to lower paying positions...and gloating. Poor form.
Regardless of the outcome, please avoid "Spiking the football"...if the vote goes the way you wish....someone will be disappointed and angry. Spiking the football is poor form and bad for unity.
I'm not trying to sell a "Yes" anymore than some are trying to sell a "No".....I was attempting to have a discussion about my thoughts and rationale. This place has devolved into "chewing gum for the brain".....it seems it's like a child yelling into an empty room just to hear its voice bounce around. I'm not convinced this TA will Fail.....remember, this forum and others like it are influenced by self-selection bias.....just like most people do not go on to review an average product on Amazon.......
I may stop in periodically and lurk, but I will refrain from responding (No matter how hard Anthrax may taunt me
)...I might fail at that as my narcissistic tendencies sometimes rule the day.Hopefully a fruitful and thoughtful discussion will ensue.....and not self-destructive behavior. An honest "hot wash" of the TA results that dispassionately discusses how the vote resulted without assigning blame would be a good idea for any future negotiation.
07-14-2023 | 10:19 AM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
No result of Collective bargaining is palatable to everyone in the group...In fact, most everyone in the group may have some gripe about the quality of the taste, amount, or texture....but it is successful if it meets the nutritional requirements of the majority of the group.
Like they say, a horse designed by committee results in a camel. You can ride a camel but someone has to sit on the hump....Best bet is to trade places so no one is riding the hump too long. The idea is better to ride the hump once in a while together then to walk alone.
The way the 2015 Contract passed followed these five stages:
Denial..... Anger......Bargaining....Depression...Acceptance
Denial: I can't believe they let this out of committee.....This is NOT the best we could do....This is NOT what we wanted or told would happen...This NOT the best we could do
Anger: "I'm having my future sold out by XXXXX group" I'm being sacrificed for XXXXXX...Even though everyone is saying 'NO'.....deep in my heart I know this will pass and I'm getting screwed"
Bargaining: "well maybe we can take the good parts of this and just add a little more....lets turn this down and then we get the company to do this XXXXX
Depression/Victimhood: My career at FDX is over basically, I got screwed....I failed.
Acceptance: Well, this is not what I wanted....I am disappointed, but I'll take the gain and move on as there are other things in my life that share importance. I will work like hell to make it better and not engage in self destructive behavior that weakens us in the long run.
If you think some of us are "Sell outs", I assure you that we're not, we've just been through this before and we work through the stages a lot faster. Even guys at Delta will do this as they discover things after ratification they thought were great, but were in fine print. Like the Purple and Silver seniority integration where all those guys claim to have been screwed....I figure it might have been fairly equitably done because I didn't meet a single pilot who said "boy I got a better deal than most on the seniority integration".
If the TA passes, and you are a "no" voter, you'll have to work through those stages and hopefully get to Acceptance (note I didn't say capitulation).
If the TA fails, the same applies.......
I remember when the Age 65 thing passed, we had some back seat guys high-fiving each other when they got re-awarded their Captain seat in front of guys getting excess to lower paying positions...and gloating. Poor form.
Regardless of the outcome, please avoid "Spiking the football"...if the vote goes the way you wish....someone will be disappointed and angry. Spiking the football is poor form and bad for unity.
I'm not trying to sell a "Yes" anymore than some are trying to sell a "No".....I was attempting to have a discussion about my thoughts and rationale. This place has devolved into "chewing gum for the brain".....it seems it's like a child yelling into an empty room just to hear its voice bounce around. I'm not convinced this TA will Fail.....remember, this forum and others like it are influenced by self-selection bias.....just like most people do not go on to review an average product on Amazon.......
I may stop in periodically and lurk, but I will refrain from responding (No matter how hard Anthrax may taunt me)...I might fail at that as my narcissistic tendencies sometimes rule the day.
Hopefully a fruitful and thoughtful discussion will ensue.....and not self-destructive behavior. An honest "hot wash" of the TA results that dispassionately discusses how the vote resulted without assigning blame would be a good idea for any future negotiation.
Like they say, a horse designed by committee results in a camel. You can ride a camel but someone has to sit on the hump....Best bet is to trade places so no one is riding the hump too long. The idea is better to ride the hump once in a while together then to walk alone.
The way the 2015 Contract passed followed these five stages:
Denial..... Anger......Bargaining....Depression...Acceptance
Denial: I can't believe they let this out of committee.....This is NOT the best we could do....This is NOT what we wanted or told would happen...This NOT the best we could do
Anger: "I'm having my future sold out by XXXXX group" I'm being sacrificed for XXXXXX...Even though everyone is saying 'NO'.....deep in my heart I know this will pass and I'm getting screwed"
Bargaining: "well maybe we can take the good parts of this and just add a little more....lets turn this down and then we get the company to do this XXXXX
Depression/Victimhood: My career at FDX is over basically, I got screwed....I failed.
Acceptance: Well, this is not what I wanted....I am disappointed, but I'll take the gain and move on as there are other things in my life that share importance. I will work like hell to make it better and not engage in self destructive behavior that weakens us in the long run.
If you think some of us are "Sell outs", I assure you that we're not, we've just been through this before and we work through the stages a lot faster. Even guys at Delta will do this as they discover things after ratification they thought were great, but were in fine print. Like the Purple and Silver seniority integration where all those guys claim to have been screwed....I figure it might have been fairly equitably done because I didn't meet a single pilot who said "boy I got a better deal than most on the seniority integration".
If the TA passes, and you are a "no" voter, you'll have to work through those stages and hopefully get to Acceptance (note I didn't say capitulation).
If the TA fails, the same applies.......
I remember when the Age 65 thing passed, we had some back seat guys high-fiving each other when they got re-awarded their Captain seat in front of guys getting excess to lower paying positions...and gloating. Poor form.
Regardless of the outcome, please avoid "Spiking the football"...if the vote goes the way you wish....someone will be disappointed and angry. Spiking the football is poor form and bad for unity.
I'm not trying to sell a "Yes" anymore than some are trying to sell a "No".....I was attempting to have a discussion about my thoughts and rationale. This place has devolved into "chewing gum for the brain".....it seems it's like a child yelling into an empty room just to hear its voice bounce around. I'm not convinced this TA will Fail.....remember, this forum and others like it are influenced by self-selection bias.....just like most people do not go on to review an average product on Amazon.......
I may stop in periodically and lurk, but I will refrain from responding (No matter how hard Anthrax may taunt me
)...I might fail at that as my narcissistic tendencies sometimes rule the day.Hopefully a fruitful and thoughtful discussion will ensue.....and not self-destructive behavior. An honest "hot wash" of the TA results that dispassionately discusses how the vote resulted without assigning blame would be a good idea for any future negotiation.
07-14-2023 | 11:19 AM
#4
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 864
Likes: 50
From: B767
No result of Collective bargaining is palatable to everyone in the group...In fact, most everyone in the group may have some gripe about the quality of the taste, amount, or texture....but it is successful if it meets the nutritional requirements of the majority of the group.
Like they say, a horse designed by committee results in a camel. You can ride a camel but someone has to sit on the hump....Best bet is to trade places so no one is riding the hump too long. The idea is better to ride the hump once in a while together then to walk alone.
The way the 2015 Contract passed followed these five stages:
Denial..... Anger......Bargaining....Depression...Acceptance
Denial: I can't believe they let this out of committee.....This is NOT the best we could do....This is NOT what we wanted or told would happen...This NOT the best we could do
Anger: "I'm having my future sold out by XXXXX group" I'm being sacrificed for XXXXXX...Even though everyone is saying 'NO'.....deep in my heart I know this will pass and I'm getting screwed"
Bargaining: "well maybe we can take the good parts of this and just add a little more....lets turn this down and then we get the company to do this XXXXX
Depression/Victimhood: My career at FDX is over basically, I got screwed....I failed.
Acceptance: Well, this is not what I wanted....I am disappointed, but I'll take the gain and move on as there are other things in my life that share importance. I will work like hell to make it better and not engage in self destructive behavior that weakens us in the long run.
If you think some of us are "Sell outs", I assure you that we're not, we've just been through this before and we work through the stages a lot faster. Even guys at Delta will do this as they discover things after ratification they thought were great, but were in fine print. Like the Purple and Silver seniority integration where all those guys claim to have been screwed....I figure it might have been fairly equitably done because I didn't meet a single pilot who said "boy I got a better deal than most on the seniority integration".
If the TA passes, and you are a "no" voter, you'll have to work through those stages and hopefully get to Acceptance (note I didn't say capitulation).
If the TA fails, the same applies.......
I remember when the Age 65 thing passed, we had some back seat guys high-fiving each other when they got re-awarded their Captain seat in front of guys getting excess to lower paying positions...and gloating. Poor form.
Regardless of the outcome, please avoid "Spiking the football"...if the vote goes the way you wish....someone will be disappointed and angry. Spiking the football is poor form and bad for unity.
I'm not trying to sell a "Yes" anymore than some are trying to sell a "No".....I was attempting to have a discussion about my thoughts and rationale. This place has devolved into "chewing gum for the brain".....it seems it's like a child yelling into an empty room just to hear its voice bounce around. I'm not convinced this TA will Fail.....remember, this forum and others like it are influenced by self-selection bias.....just like most people do not go on to review an average product on Amazon.......
I may stop in periodically and lurk, but I will refrain from responding (No matter how hard Anthrax may taunt me)...I might fail at that as my narcissistic tendencies sometimes rule the day.
Hopefully a fruitful and thoughtful discussion will ensue.....and not self-destructive behavior. An honest "hot wash" of the TA results that dispassionately discusses how the vote resulted without assigning blame would be a good idea for any future negotiation.
Like they say, a horse designed by committee results in a camel. You can ride a camel but someone has to sit on the hump....Best bet is to trade places so no one is riding the hump too long. The idea is better to ride the hump once in a while together then to walk alone.
The way the 2015 Contract passed followed these five stages:
Denial..... Anger......Bargaining....Depression...Acceptance
Denial: I can't believe they let this out of committee.....This is NOT the best we could do....This is NOT what we wanted or told would happen...This NOT the best we could do
Anger: "I'm having my future sold out by XXXXX group" I'm being sacrificed for XXXXXX...Even though everyone is saying 'NO'.....deep in my heart I know this will pass and I'm getting screwed"
Bargaining: "well maybe we can take the good parts of this and just add a little more....lets turn this down and then we get the company to do this XXXXX
Depression/Victimhood: My career at FDX is over basically, I got screwed....I failed.
Acceptance: Well, this is not what I wanted....I am disappointed, but I'll take the gain and move on as there are other things in my life that share importance. I will work like hell to make it better and not engage in self destructive behavior that weakens us in the long run.
If you think some of us are "Sell outs", I assure you that we're not, we've just been through this before and we work through the stages a lot faster. Even guys at Delta will do this as they discover things after ratification they thought were great, but were in fine print. Like the Purple and Silver seniority integration where all those guys claim to have been screwed....I figure it might have been fairly equitably done because I didn't meet a single pilot who said "boy I got a better deal than most on the seniority integration".
If the TA passes, and you are a "no" voter, you'll have to work through those stages and hopefully get to Acceptance (note I didn't say capitulation).
If the TA fails, the same applies.......
I remember when the Age 65 thing passed, we had some back seat guys high-fiving each other when they got re-awarded their Captain seat in front of guys getting excess to lower paying positions...and gloating. Poor form.
Regardless of the outcome, please avoid "Spiking the football"...if the vote goes the way you wish....someone will be disappointed and angry. Spiking the football is poor form and bad for unity.
I'm not trying to sell a "Yes" anymore than some are trying to sell a "No".....I was attempting to have a discussion about my thoughts and rationale. This place has devolved into "chewing gum for the brain".....it seems it's like a child yelling into an empty room just to hear its voice bounce around. I'm not convinced this TA will Fail.....remember, this forum and others like it are influenced by self-selection bias.....just like most people do not go on to review an average product on Amazon.......
I may stop in periodically and lurk, but I will refrain from responding (No matter how hard Anthrax may taunt me
)...I might fail at that as my narcissistic tendencies sometimes rule the day.Hopefully a fruitful and thoughtful discussion will ensue.....and not self-destructive behavior. An honest "hot wash" of the TA results that dispassionately discusses how the vote resulted without assigning blame would be a good idea for any future negotiation.
07-14-2023 | 12:03 PM
#6
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Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 846
Likes: 86
07-14-2023 | 04:32 PM
#9
Banned
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 1,244
Likes: 0
So whats DL monthly take home vs FX or end of year? Not quite dollar for dollar comparison if you are getting paid more credit hours per year at FX vs DL.
07-14-2023 | 05:26 PM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
now put their new rates in, it’s not close.
Last edited by Coffeepilot1; 07-14-2023 at 05:47 PM.
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