Those 300-400 are going to have to retire soon anyway, and chances are they will hold out for a buyout too even if the TA passes unless ALPA is foolish enough to let an additional buyout be rolled into the TA. Anyone who would trade the stability and earnings of the rest of their career just to get a few months of faster seniority progression is a fool.

option 1 would have let Raj shrink the company even more. Not worth $28k and industry worst compensation and retirement.

Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute about the state of FX or just want to keep claiming the legacies will falter somehow. What if they don’t? You don’t know the answer to that but the stagnation and problems at FX are very real right now. I wouldn’t have even considered this job if I had even half the insite I do now.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the Pastal Contact has been a godsend for the last two decades. Day flying and fills up 30 MD-11's per day in volume. But the contract may be cut by 80% this fall. And then if true, FDX is waaay over staffed. Even with an early $500K buyout offers to the top seniority 60 year olds. Also, if you look around the system, FDX flies triple the birds than UPS. Eventually management is going to try to match that ratio. Not Good if your under 40 and junior. While AAL and others are hiring like no tomorrow and 50% of their pilots retiring next 5 years.

AAL is telling new hires that they will be WB CA within 5 years.

Over hiring was done. Unless there is a TA 2.0 this year with sugar for early retirements I predict a furlough. Especially if the Postal Contract is gutted. Remember, it fills 30 WB's daily. That is a lot of extra flying gone if the postmaster general wants to shrink it. UAL has 150 787's on order FYI.

that’s completely false I have buddies there that got hired 2 years ago that won’t see wb ca until the tail end of their career in a decent base nyc a bit sooner. Getting hired now almost certainly guarantees no wb ca but you can still get awarded nb ca in less than 2 years

I left for a legacy and couldn’t be happier. Happy to talk via PM if you want so we can skip the BS from Stan and his ilk.

Nuts that you can get NB CA at UAL. I’m in the same boat as OP that I’m junior, looking at watching the pension get stripped away with a divided retirement group, and NB future. I got a CJO and class date in less than a month. I’m looking for FDX to make one good move to galvanize my trust in them… but it’s just miss after miss when looking at management decisions.

My Brother is a 787 CA there. It is 100% true. This is what the new hires are being told in indoc. Get your facts straight.

Glad to know gossip is passed off as fact now. I guess we can expect to hit 7000 pilots some time this fall.

People stuck with this “I was hired in blah blah blah” mentality truly don’t understand that Fedex is going through a major transformational change in how it thinks and operates. The days of “love to fly airplanes” are gone. The OpEd has serious and legitimate concerns, although he went to Fedex making assumptions about the future, that is on him. The decline in volume is cyclical, it will rebound, that is not the main source of the root problems for the Fedex pilot group going forward. Yes, they over hired, which exacerbates the problem but should correct eventually. This is a short term problem.

The main problems which will affect the pilots most are the shift to moving the package the cheapest way possible vs mostly flying it, AND the loss of the postal volume, which will basically decimate the day sorts, drastically reduce domestic day flying. While I don’t think Fedex will shrink to the size of UPS, I do think it doesn’t take much to read all the information out there, financial disclosures, etc, to clearly see Express will shrink a fair amount. No one saw coming what UPS just did, offer a buyout to the most expensive pilots in order to rightsize the group. Fedex is acting more like the traditional UPS, fear mongering, scare tactics, trying to get people to leave on their own when it simply won’t happen en mass like they want to unless you incentivize people. A major shift in culture is going on, this is not the lost decade, not 1998, not 2000, not cyclical (not counting volume decline which is).

The junior folks at Fedex are faced with a no win situation. Stay and be stagnated for multiple years (length is anyone’s guess), or go to the big 4 after a major hiring wave and be at risk of any sort of downturn in the world (economy, another pandemic, whatever), plus seniority progression will not be anywhere near like someone hired in 2021, 2022 for example. Plus some may not even want to fly pax.

I have multiple friends at Fedex, two very junior, who don’t plan on leaving ‘cause they are too old and are resigned to the fact of being a permanent FO. The common theme amongst all of them: FDX pilot group is highly dysfunctional, very little unity, senior eat the junior for lunch, no cohesiveness, MEC leadership clueless. They say this is the hardest part to swallow. All the Fred non contractual leniency, kindness basically gone. It’s like working for UPS 🙄.

If you are 45 or younger, very tough decision. If older, you might as well ride it out. The grass isn’t always greener on the other side. One thing is clear: the Fred Fedex is gone. There were ups and downs with Fred, good and bad (I would guess mostly good), but the indu bean counter is in charge, with the help of the Atlas butcher, pressured by a board who only cares about money. This is the reality of corporate America, greed, money, profits over anything else. Don’t get me wrong, I am a true capitalist, but I do think the pendulum has swung way too far.

Legitimate concern, tough choice, no win situation. But I will agree, try to be happy even in the worst situations.

Great post C2078. Right on target.

Well that depends on their age. It also depends on whether AA rebuilds their WB fleed or decides to cede to UAL.

FDX is not going to make that move anytime soon. They WANT you to leave right now. Once they are right sized, then they MIGHT start making better choices... doubt it though.

well said.

For one I don't think you even work at Fedex so all you know is heresy. Were you here during the pre union years when Fred would come and talk to the pilots? Or when we got the RED letter from Fred saying he will do it with us or with out us? Or through the economic downturn and the loss of FE seats when things were stagnant? I did think so. So all you are really sayong is Blah Blah Blah a bunch of crap you don't understand a thing about. So keep talking about how us old guys don't know anything. We know and undrstand a lot more about this business than you will ever know as an outsider.

Fedex goes through a transformational change in every downturn, you just were not here to experience it. We felt it, however we were doing a lot better than the pax carriers so everyone on the outside thought things were all roses. Fedex has always tried to ship things the cheapest way, if you worked here you would see the freight getting loaded into semi's to get trucked especially on two and three day.
Fedex is trying to unwind a lot of the excesses from COVID when they were printing money. What the biggest difference is the postal service trucking more than before.

Management fooled all the new hires and junior with the big bid, gave them all false promises so they would have their blinders on during contract negotiations. The senior pilots new it was BS but the junior latched onto it like the pink pony they are chasing.

So if someone came here and did their homework they would know that the postal contract is up for contract every 5-6 years and we could lose a portion of that business, also they would have known that the COVID excess would not last. Guess what the free money has been spent and people are spending less money on things, which means less manufacturing and production lines that don't need updating. So only looking at our W-2's and listening to all the drfat volunteer stories and fast upgrades you were mislead for the long term.

Of course there are a lot of things that can be improved here. Are we going to get them all at once, no. As for the common theme, that is the common theme during every contract, it is what the company wants and we are stupid enough to give it to them.

You can stay here and try and make it better or you can go somewhere else and take your chances. At least you have an option since everyone is hiring.

Old guy here, hired at the tail end of the postal contract. Voted no. Almost left myself after 2 and a half years when still on reserve in the back of the 72. Stuck it out mainly because of our A fund. Million dollar difference over my hoped for lifespan if we don't dork it up in TA2.0 and I make it that long (say 85).

I will say this: if there is any way you and your family could tolerate living in domicile for one of the majors you are considering and understand the risk of industry downturns (which you obviously do) then I would seriously consider taking the job and moving to a domicile. Yeah its a risk and the grass isn't always greener, but if you have such concerns (and they are valid) then perhaps you'd be happier on the pax side.

I'm sure its an agonizing time, but as Thrust Hold said this is probably just a blip and in a couple of years things will be on the upswing. With about a year and a half to go, I am content with my decision 20 years ago, but only you can decide for you and your family if you are ready to make that jump.

I wish you the best in your decision and career.

You do realize in TA 1.0, you. could choose to stay in the Pension plan....Nothing was "stripped away" for anyone on property.

prolly ought to go
 

OGARMYOPAR. I think you should bail. All I have seen you post seems to indicate you are unhappy here. There may have been other posts that I haven't seen, but if you are unhappy, you should leave....especially if you think you can do better somewhere else. No one will write you a check at tht end of your career to make you whole for making a decision based on bad advice from them if it doesn't work out. I fear that if you stay, you'll always be wishing you left. Can you give me one positive thing for you about staying?
.
If you are asking for advice about leaving, I think you have an answer. The guys junior to you will thank you. The guys senior to you will wish you well....The company will be glad because it's overmanned. The truth of the matter is, no one other than you cares one way or another.....sad to say it....but true. Make the best decision you can and live with it....

I'm assuming you were a military guy. Even though everyone got off at 2:00pm to attend the retirement ceremony of some really good guy. The ceremony was nice....family came it, beer and cake served afterward, oaths of continued contact and good will are taken.....then its over....the military goes right on without the retiree....and on Monday, you're just another retiree clogging the aisles at the commissary, and nobody notices that you're gone.

FedEx was saying the same thing a year and a half ago. Heck, I'm just over 5 years and I'd be waiting on training if I wanted a WB CA spot. There's a ton of luck involved in all of this and it's never as good or as bad as it seems.

It sounds like you're young, junior, unhappy and stuck flying routes and equipment you hate. I'd leave if I were you. I expect to lose 300-400 guys this year. It just makes sense that the junior guys would leave.

This is a realization, among a few others, that made me retire right at 20, and also shapes my view of this career.

This is the first thing I tell those inquiring about the industry. My own path, which has been very good for my time in the industry, comes down to dumb luck and timing for the most part.

To the OP, I get your frustration. Get the timing wrong (bad luck) and there can be a lot of second guessing and regret. Honestly, pick one, do the job to the best of your ability, fly with some great people, and know that you still have one of the best jobs on the planet. When I stop and really think about it, I'm still amazed at the work:reward ratio you're able to achieve with this career.

Even with my mind virus, I can still remember sitting beside the pool at the Amerisuites off 36th Street in Miami in 1999. I was at Gemini.

I was emoting over my career choices. None of them were all that good.

A wise old captain - Vietnam vet, had flown for three other cargo carriers, another nasty Boomer - took a sip of his gin and tonic and said, "You know, someday you'll realize, what matters is this: your friends and your family. That's it."

I'm guessing that if you're unhappy doing night hubturns, you'll be unhappy flying 4-leg days in a 717. But what do I know.

My two cents.
the United Tumi TA almost made that place a joke and then a year later they turned it around.
The same could happen here or not.
if you live in a legacy base then I definitely think it’s a tougher choice, I don’t.
I have friends at every airline and they all have infighting and issues. Deltas MEC was just as bad during their negotiations with the reps sending out mass emails bashing one another.
the thing that makes the job the easiest is driving to work. So if you can drive to work, do it and if it’s for pax, spend your money wisely for when the next down turn happens.
im 300 from the bottom FWIW

4 legs in the sunshine with no redeyes on the 717 actually sounds much better than 4 legs through the night on the 757. I don't think you can even compare them objectively because they're that much different.

I agree about the friends and family comment. That's all that matters.

The Tumi TA wasn't as bad as ours and still got shot down by 96%. Only 57% of our eligible voting pilots voted no, but that was with over 10% of our crew force being ineligible to vote due to our silly probation rules.

Nailed it. Friends and family are all that matters. That's it.

However 4-leg days in the sunshine getting vitamin D is better than 4 leg nights in a 757. Hell I'd even prefer a 5 or 6-leg day in a 717 over a 2-leg night in 767.

UAL's Tumi TA got rejected by 96%. Our TA was worse and only got rejected by 57%, but that was with >10% of the pilot group being strategically ineligible to vote.

100%. I wasn’t so much conflicted with staying in the legacy plan as I was when the former R&I Chair shot the email to the NC about a scenario in which the company and pilot group could agree to terminate the pension for all active pilots. I can screen shot the response, but I’m not too literate on the nuances of the language they were using (just a pilot). Anyways, my key takeaway was the NC response saying

“Yes. Under federal law, standard termination of the pension could occur while there are active pilots in the legacy DB plan; however, of utmost importance is the fact that the FedEx Pilots Pension Plan can only be terminated if ALPA agrees to such termination.”

(I didn’t underline it, the email did.)

This response made me now realize that in 24 years, when I want to retire, will the A Plan be there if most of the pilot force is on the MBCBP? And if they are, will the company posit something to eliminate the pension, essentially affecting my old self?

I don’t know! This is what I mean by the “stripping away” of the pension. There is no certainty, and some CAs I’ve flown with have said it’s foolish for me to expect the company to be beholden to paying me one.

A lot of history on that street and a lot of truth to your post.

You would do yourself a big favor and research how our current A fund is funded by the company. How much money is in it. Who are the other employees that participate in it. Also research the current pension laws and what is required by the company by law. Even if the pilots voted to eliminate it you would be locked in at what you have earned as far as high five and YOS.

It is a lot of money, invest the time and do the research. You will earn a lot of money here. Hardest part is keeping it and investing wisely.

Thank you. Appreciate the response.

oh my gosh! Imagine what that would be like…a bunch of pilots get hired under unusual circumstances and then they want to trade the value of your pension that you earned and defended for a career, and divide that up among themselves….

They’ll probably tell you that you had plenty of time to make your money, but this is their company now.

prolly never happen …

What TA did you read? Because it obviously wasn't the one the rest of us read that bet it all on an a-plan increase at the cost of QOL, industry lagging pay, scope, and pilot group unity for the next decade. Nowhere in it did it devalue the pension OTHER than for those remaining on property through the next contract(s).

Don’t be simple and disingenuous . You know well I’m talking about the attitude and course the discussion on this board has taken since the failure of the TA to be ratified.

As far as unity is concerned, the name calling, character assassination and intolerance of those that don’t agree with your world view is profound.

You want to talk about unity? Let’s look at the language Anthrax uses to attack people having a discussion he doesn’t agree with. Seriously…pull up some of his quotes. He’s not an ambassador for unity by any stretch. He doubled and tripled down on his comments when I ask him to make himself clear. He clumsily tried to backpedal when he realized it might be for a deposition, he made like “ I’m just joking, bro”.

i really don’t care about his ugliness, just using it as an example.

You use the concept of unity as a foil to promote your agenda with the skill of a mentally deficient bludgeoner.

Do you really believe in the concept of “Unity” that you espoused, or are you stuck with parroting buz-words you were taught to string together.


if you believe in all this Unity, why haven’t you called out people that share your viewpoint when they step out of line? Are you afraid of your bronies criticizing you?

by the way, I’m here for at least two more contracts.

Well I'm certainly simple. And I don't know what that other word means. :-)

Attitude and discussion here and elsewhere are a reflection of the thankfully failed TA. I think the root cause of the failure was from the NC/MEC putting 90% of the value into the a-plan bump. I've seen that estimate be as low as 45% of the TAs value, but given that (to me) there was almost nothing else in the TA that was industry-leading or an improvement over 2015, it was WAY too high of a percentage. And the discussion since then seems to break down into two camps. One that wants desperately to hold onto the a-plan gains at all costs in TA1.1. And another who wants to EITHER leverage more $$$ from the company OR wants to dial back the a-plan GAINS so the rest of the TA isn't a farce. I haven't seen the discussion that wants to take away your a-plan yet.

Are your replying to someone else in this edit, or did you hit the sauce a bit early today?

Probably on the sauce, and he doesn't even work here.

They are already planning one later half of 2024.

Yes, but will it be an excess bid? Or whatever it is called now?

Or will everyone actually get to "bid what they want to fly"?

Many people didn't get to bid last time around. Will they get to bid this time?

With the parking of more MD's, it'll be another Realignment Bid. The time to bid whatever you wanted has passed. Folks got too comfy (complacent) during the good times and didn't anticipate the music stopping.

When does the USPS contract expire? Jan. 01 2025? And USPS makes the decision public Oct. 01? How much smaller will it be? 20%. 50%? If the rumors are true that the post master general wants to shrink it?

Expires in September of 2024. Also, the Postmaster General has been drawing down shipping mail via air for a couple years now. He announced his plan THRICE years ago and yet we kept hiring knowing COVID would end and we'd be hauling less mail. Again, this is a (MIS)MANAGEMENT problem not a pilot problem.

FDX needs t offer that $500K early separation deal then, soon. Like UPS did at $320K. To reduce the chances of a furlough if true that it will be cut it significantly. While DL is about to Order 40 new A350 WB's.

FedEx also needs to take delivery of all their 767 options and buy new build MD-11 replacements. However, immediate shareholder returns are more important right now so they won't, and it will end up costing them even more money for fleet renewal later on than if they did it now.