Originally Posted by Raptor

When I read blue writing (new language) in the TA, I think about worst case scenarios. If I can imagine it, the company can do it. They have shown through 4.A.2.b, Sick Leave notes, and other examples that they can also take language which I think seems clear and interpret it as they wish--and they only don't get their way if we grieve it and win. How often do we grieve something and how often do we win? Not often.

I have a lot of problems with section 8. I think this is one of the sections where we gave back the most with the least in return. Everyone touts being able to use one-half of unused deviation bank money one month in arrears or ahead as a win. It IS an improvement, but I think it's cost neutral or even cost-positive for the company just based on the way pilots' minds work! I did a LOT of deviating over the years. I almost never had a problem staying within my bank. I was very good at spending thousands and giving back tens of dollars and on a rare basis significantly more.

With this TA, I would be more cost conscious in my spending and save more "in case" I need it next month where before I would spend without any regard. Under the TA, I would take a taxi for $40 instead of ordering the car service for $120 so I could keep $40 for ONE month (half of $80). I think this fact of human nature has the likelihood of making this cost neutral or cost positive for the company--it's a bit counterintuitive, but I think likely this would change our behavior. So, while it's an improvement, I don't think it's a huge win and I don't think that I need to give up something else to pay for it--it's already paid for in my opinion.

Therefore, I look at any other givebacks in section 8 as just that--unwarranted give backs being sold as paying for other changes.

Let's take a look at the change in class of service rules. While I agree a flat bed seat (not just flat, but level with the cabin floor) is what's critical for me being to get rest and feel human on the other end, there is a BIG difference in various airline's service and comfort within business class or even business to first. Compare Cathay, Singapore, Emirates business to United business or even Delta's One class. Heck, the foreign carrier's business class is often better than United or American's first class cabin and service based on my personal experience. With United, you can be winging your way to Dubai in a 2-4-2 business class with 20 inch wide seats which don't all have aisle access (people waking you stepping over you) and which have half of the seats facing backwards.

The company has shown they will negotiate savings in their deadheads and use those carriers in roundabout ways to keep the savings. By this I use Asiana as an example from a year ago. Their first class fares were incredibly cheap--their business class fares even more so. The company had been flying pilots to LAX, overnighting them in a hotel, then flying them to/through Seoul on Asiana, at very cheap fares. The extra time in the deadhead, the extra cost of the coach ticket MEM-LAX, and the night in the hotel obviously don't cost more than the fares on other carriers or else they wouldn't be doing it. Asiana's first class fares were about $1200 and their business class fares were about $650 on the routing above. Many pilots avoided these trips because they didn't live in Memphis and they couldn't get into position on even a business class ticket on other carriers! With this change to the TA permitting a lie flat seat to fulfill higher class of service requirements, the accepted fare on this routing in business class on Asiana would now be about $650. Who could deviate and get there on almost any other airline's coach fare? Good thing you could now make a personal decision to jumpseat on another trip to work the previous month to get enough saved bank at 50 cents on the dollar so you could fly coach to the Pacific.

People are looking at the comfort level and the "spoiled" pilots getting first class international (excuse me, intercontinental) flights. The issue wasn't being a champagne swilling deviator, it was having enough bank to be able to deviate from your home town. And that deviation bank had to cover some pretty expensive ground transportation to your hotel. Throw in the TA's 18 hour international check-in requirement, and your ever shrinking deviation bank now has to use a business class fare to pay for your ticket, GT, and perhaps an extra day in the hotel. You'll say "use the scheduled DH" from Memphis, or join-up the 2nd leg of the trip (provision in the new TA), but that's not always possible as the cheap fare class may be gone by the time you get assigned the trip, or it may not be feasible from where you live.

So, it's not so much wanting to fly first over business (that is nice and a world of difference by the way), but it's having enough bank to fly as you can to position yourself. Anyone who doesn't think the company over the next decade won't negotiate a sweetheart fare deal with an airline to get you overseas on the cheap isn't thinking about the wise move on the company part to save money. And, that will be negotiated into a fare bucket that is limited and not a true C class fare. Good luck over the next decade deviating and getting there without out of pocket costs for GT, airline tickets, and hotels--even with the sliding 50% of your extra bank money.

Originally Posted by TheBaron Deux

d. Hotel

i. DomesticNon-Intercontinental Deadheads
A pilot who is scheduled for consecutive non-intercontinental deadheads from and back to the same domestic city, may expense up to 3 nights of hotel use in the contract hotel in lieu of the scheduled deadhead tickets. The hotel use shall be between the scheduled deadheads. Use of a non-contract hotel, and any hotel use for greater than 3 nights, requires prior approval of the pilot'’s ACPFleet Captain, or his designee.



Non-Intercontinental Deadheads include the old Domestic and International. Intra-Asia and Intra-Europe flights fall under this part. Domestic has been dropped and is no longer included in this specific part (that's why it's in red and the new language is in blue. The old International that applied to all international deadheads has been split into International and Intercontinental. See ii of this part for that hotel in lieu of deadhead provision.

Originally Posted by Raptor

I'm not sure what you're saying? I thought I understood you to say in a post just prior to this that someone else was wrong when they mentioned the new Non-Intercontinental vs Intercontinental Hotel-In-Lieu-of deadhead rules were a giveback...and you said they're not?

You don't think this changed TA wording wipes out the ability of the FDA pilots to use hotel in lieu of DH for their benefit while living overseas?

Originally Posted by TheBaron Deux

NO! It absolutely does not! They are on a NON-INTERCONTINENTAL deadhead. They can expense 3 days hotel in lieu of deadhead. Very simple. It's in black and white (and blue and red.)

Originally Posted by TheBaron Deux

Maybe you should reread our current CBA section 8. There are very few DH's that require a 1st class seat. The company has always had (and used) their option (fare code FCF). They only have to buy a 1st class seat on single leg flight with a duty day over 16 hours. Can you name even 1 that appears in the bidpack? I've done one...EWR-SIN...in 9 1/2 years on the MD. And guess what. That was booked in Business on Singapore because no airline had 1st class service direct out of EWR to SIN. Totally legal under the current contract. This is not the huge giveback so many are saying it is. Balanced with the real gains in section 8 we definitely came out ahead.

I think you may also wrong on the one month point. You can go arrears one month to use it; any remainder rolls forward to become part of the next months deviation bank. So you save $2000 dollars. That amount gets reduced to $1000 and if not needed in arrears, it becomes part of your next months bank. Now say you use all of the next months bid pack bank but don't touch the $1000 from the prior month. That overage gets reduced by 50% and gets carried forward to the next month...a reducing benefit until it's eventually used.

Originally Posted by kwri10s

You need to re-read the section. The ONLY way a NON-INTERCONTINENTAL DH can claim a hotel in lieu is to have a backend DH and then the next trip front end DH to the same location. Then you can claim a Hotel in lieu of the two DHs. Right now for INTERNATIONAL DHs you can claim 3 days of hotel in lieu on either DH or both.

Originally Posted by kwri10s

You are correct the term Hotel in Lieu still is in the contract. But now instead of international trips being allowed to check in 3 days early in-lieu of their front end DH, or remain 3 days after in-lieu of a DH; the new (8.C.3.d.ii.) non-intercontinental rules, in order to qualify for hotel in lieu, you must have a back end DH from the layover city and the next front end DH to the same city even if you are in an international location. If you do meet those restrictions then you can apply the old (also new) domestic hotel in lieu rules. So if you are in Europe or Asia or Hawaii or Puerto Rico or TLC or etc, you can not longer use the old international hotel in lieu option.

There-by the big losers of that option are the Asia and Europe pilots. Although there's a pretty big HNL usage of the current international hotel in lieu option that will be gone. So if it is a loss for even a small group, wouldn't you call it a give back? Even worse in my book has been the NC answer on the give back of, "it was not the intent of that section, so we changed it." Their answer sounds like we did it to ourselves. ???

Originally Posted by TheBaron Deux

No, but I guess it depends on the type of deadhead you're looking at. If they are on a NON-INTERCONTINENTAL deadhead they can expense 3 days hotel in lieu of deadhead. That's for the old double deadhead. No meaningful changes. Very simple. It's in black and white (and blue and red.)
For a front end or back end only...well that's a different can of worms.

Originally Posted by kwri10s

You need to re-read the section. The ONLY way a NON-INTERCONTINENTAL DH can claim a hotel in lieu is to have a backend DH and then the next trip front end DH to the same location. Then you can claim a Hotel in lieu of the two DHs. Right now for INTERNATIONAL DHs you can claim 3 days of hotel in lieu on either DH or both.