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Dissenting LEC votes speak for me

Old 09-18-2015, 08:37 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Flaps50 View Post
I'd actually argue that not getting A380 pay rates was a blessing in disguise for this current negotiation because now every WB pilot A300/MD11/B767 at FedEx will make B777 industry leading rates. By splitting out the B777 into it's own rate the rest of the WB pilots at FedEx would be making less on this contract, and the only rate they would have pegged to be the industry leader would have been the B777. I believe that would have been the likely scenario.

Remember we turned down ULR at 11 hours when the B777 came on line because we had to improve the B777 rate. We ended up with neither so it didn't work out too well for us on that one...
But, we ended up with neither because of 4.A.2.b. How could we consider passing the long range premium (was it at 11.5 hours) 777 LOA when faced with what the company was doing at the time.

My whole perception of how I think about this TA (look for the worst interpretation and assume the company will exploit) is colored by two major things:

1) the seemingly unbelievably poor track record we have with grievances and how few we actually even try to fight as a union

2) 4A.2.b--the company did what they wanted and the union said that wasn't the meaning behind what we agreed to.

So, when I read the NC missive of the 17th where they explain deviation bank will be higher, I just don't believe that will be practice because of plain language in the TA.

Fool me once....
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Old 09-18-2015, 09:29 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Raptor View Post
But, we ended up with neither because of 4.A.2.b. How could we consider passing the long range premium (was it at 11.5 hours) 777 LOA when faced with what the company was doing at the time.

My whole perception of how I think about this TA (look for the worst interpretation and assume the company will exploit) is colored by two major things:

1) the seemingly unbelievably poor track record we have with grievances and how few we actually even try to fight as a union

2) 4A.2.b--the company did what they wanted and the union said that wasn't the meaning behind what we agreed to.

So, when I read the NC missive of the 17th where they explain deviation bank will be higher, I just don't believe that will be practice because of plain language in the TA.

Fool me once....
We didn't get ULR because we said no we want separate 777 rates. - we got nothing in the end, yes the economy went south... we had no leverage, but could have walked away with ULR at 11 hours. That was a huge loss for our pilots.

The union is obligated to grieve any grievance you have if you follow through with the process.

Right now you get the lowest accepted fair for your deviation bank - period. Under the new TA you will get the higher of the accepted fair or the fair when ticketed. Where's the confusion? Regardless, it will not be less than what we get now, and then you get to bank it with a 50% shelf life and a 1 month look back and forward for 100% of the bank. That is considerably better than current book IMO.
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Old 09-18-2015, 09:33 AM
  #33  
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[QUOTE=Flaps50;1974112

Right now you get the lowest accepted fair for your deviation bank - period. Under the new TA you will get the higher of the accepted fair or the fair when ticketed. Where's the confusion? Regardless, it will not be less than what we get now, and then you get to bank it with a 50% shelf life and a 1 month look back and forward for 100% of the bank. That is considerably better than current book IMO.[/QUOTE]

My understanding that is not exactly how it works.
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Old 09-18-2015, 09:38 AM
  #34  
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Just the way the lawyers like it.
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Old 09-18-2015, 09:53 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Flaps50 View Post
...and then you get to bank it with a 50% shelf life and a 1 month look back and forward for 100% of the bank. That is considerably better than current book IMO.
I'm not following the "shelf life" / 100% point you're making.

The way I read it, if you have excess bank at the end of May, the first thing that happens is that excess amount gets cut by 50%.

THEN, that 50% number is available to offset expenses that weren't covered in April. Whatever remains of the 50% after that gets added to Jun and the process repeats.

The only month 100% of the bank can be used in is the current month. Once you start applying any excess to a previous or subsequent month, that excess is cut by 50% before you start.
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Old 09-18-2015, 09:54 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Flaps50 View Post
We didn't get ULR because we said no we want separate 777 rates. - we got nothing in the end, yes the economy went south... we had no leverage, but could have walked away with ULR at 11 hours. That was a huge loss for our pilots.

The union is obligated to grieve any grievance you have if you follow through with the process.

Right now you get the lowest accepted fair for your deviation bank - period. Under the new TA you will get the higher of the accepted fair or the fair when ticketed. Where's the confusion? Regardless, it will not be less than what we get now, and then you get to bank it with a 50% shelf life and a 1 month look back and forward for 100% of the bank. That is considerably better than current book IMO.
My point was we never win and hardly ever fight not if 380 rates would have been good or bad. The union and its lawyers stated that it was clear the 777 would get 380 rates and were wrong.

You might want to check about the union having to grieve something. Actually it goes like this they decide if they want to grieve it or not and if not it is up to you to do all the leg and legal work to grieve it! At least this is what they told me personally!
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Old 09-18-2015, 10:06 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Flaps50 View Post
We didn't get ULR because we said no we want separate 777 rates. - we got nothing in the end, yes the economy went south... we had no leverage, but could have walked away with ULR at 11 hours. That was a huge loss for our pilots.

The union is obligated to grieve any grievance you have if you follow through with the process.

Right now you get the lowest accepted fair for your deviation bank - period. Under the new TA you will get the higher of the accepted fair or the fair when ticketed. Where's the confusion? Regardless, it will not be less than what we get now, and then you get to bank it with a 50% shelf life and a 1 month look back and forward for 100% of the bank. That is considerably better than current book IMO.
Re the accepted fare two looks, agree this is better. I was referencing (not very well, my bad) the negotiating committee post of September 17th:

Flat Bed seats and Class of Service: A number of pilots perceived the potential for reduced deviation banks. We want to make it clear that this is not the case. Section 8.A.5.c.vi. (p. 120 of your TA) provides that your deviation bank will be credited with the Baseline Fare for the highest class of service which is authorized on the scheduled deadhead flight, and which exists on that flight. This rule has not changed. A 'flat bed seat' is defined as 'a seat on a commercial deadhead carrier that when fully reclined is greater than 175 degrees.' 3 seats that you can lay across do not count as a 'flat bed seat.'

And here's the actual TA language:
vi. v. Regardless of the class of service actually bookedticketed, a pilot’s deviation bank shall be credited with the Baseline Fare for the highest class of service which is authorized on the scheduled deadhead flight, and which exists on that flight.

The baseline fare:
a. The Company shall publish the Baseline Fare for all scheduled commercial deadheads.
i. For trips in the bid period package, the “Baseline Fare” is a fare quote obtained no earlier than 7 days before and no later than 2 days after the publication of the bid period package.
ii. For trip revisions, and for trips constructed after the publication of the bid period package, which include a commercial deadhead(s) for
which a Baseline Fare has not yet been published, the Baseline Fare
is a fare quote obtained at the time the Company constructs or
revises the trip.
iii. A Baseline Fare is applicable to all crew positions on the trip
containing the commercial deadhead.


So if you're booked a lower class of service (business instead of discounted first), because the flat bed seat will qualify for higher class of service, you get a one time look BASELINE fare.

The two look fares are:
b. The Company shall determine and publish the Established Fare for all scheduled commercial deadheads after the publishing of First Officer monthly bid awards, as provided in Section 25.__, and no later than 14 days prior to the scheduled departure of the commercial deadhead (except where less than 14 days remain).
i. The Established Fare is a fare quote obtained pursuant to Section
8.A.4.b.
ii. For trip revision(s) involving revision(s) to a deadhead(s), and for
trips constructed after the publication of the bid period package, the
Established Fare will be determined:
(a) When a pilot is assigned to the trip, if 14 or more days remain
prior to the scheduled departure of the deadhead;
(b) 14 days prior to the scheduled departure of the deadhead, if no
pilot has been assigned as of that time; or
(c) At the time the Company constructs or revises the trip, if less than
14 days remain prior to the scheduled departure of the deadhead.
iii. An Established Fare is applicable to all crew positions on the trip
containing the commercial deadhead.


Can someone explain to me why this phrase is in there...if you get deviation bank like the NC says for the higher baseline? i. Regardless of a passenger carrier’s nomenclature or hierarchy for classes of service, a Flat Bed Seat satisfies the higher class of service requirements set forth in this Section.

Now for the "rolling" deviation bank:
ii. To the extent that the pilot’s allowable/reimbursable deviation
expense claims for a given bid period are less than his deviation bank
credit for that bid period, that balance shall first be reduced by half.
This deviation bank allowance (DBA) shall be available to offset past
or future deviation bank overspends, as follows:
(a) If the pilot had allowable/reimbursable deviation expense claims
for the immediately preceding bid period which exceeded his
deviation bank for that bid period, the DBA shall be applied to
offset the prior overspend; and
(b) Any DBA balance remaining after application of Section
8.C.2.a.ii.(a) above shall be added to the pilot’s deviation bank
in the immediately subsequent bid period.

Does this mean the "rolling" deviation bank can keep going forward forever, each month being reduced by 1/2, or will it only go forward for ONE month, then be gone. I haven't seen this question asked in the Q&A and it's unclear to me.
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Old 09-18-2015, 10:19 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Flaps50 View Post

The union is obligated to grieve any grievance you have if you follow through with the process.
The process is nasty if the union doesn't want to grieve it. After a lot of internal processing, they say no. Then the pilot can essentially do it himself at his expense. And, the union can take a position in opposition to you. Not a very friendly system. See the last area in red for going it alone:

GRIEVANCE PROCESS
A. PROCEDURE FOR PROCESSING NON-DISCIPLINARY GRIEVANCES
1. Pilot contacts MEC Grievance Office with complaint.
2. Contract Enforcement Specialist obtains details and other information and provides an interpretation to the pilot.
a. Unfavorable Interpretation:
(1) Contract Enforcement Specialist contacts complaining pilot to relay interpretation and discourage filing of grievance.
(2) If the pilot maintains his or her right to access the grievance process, the Grievance Chairperson shall file a grievance for processing in accordance with Section 20 of the Agreement.
b. Favorable Interpretation:
(1) Contract Enforcement Specialist, in conjunction with the grievant, may attempt resolution by direct contact with the appropriate Company department.
(2) Failing resolution, the Grievance Chairperson shall file a grievance for processing in accordance with Section 20 of the Agreement.
c. Local Executive Council Notification:
(1) The Grievance Committee shall notify the respective Local Executive Council Representative(s) of the pilot(s) involved. This notification can be done electronically and in a timely as practical.
B. PROCEDURE FOR PROCESSING DISCIPLINARY GRIEVANCES
1. Pilot contacts MEC Grievance Office and is referred to the MEC Contract Administration Office.
2. A Contract Administrator or grievance representative obtains details and receives the appropriate course of action from the ALPA Representation Department.
3. Grievance Representative may accompany the pilot to any management hearings and/or appeals as appropriate.
4. If no resolution acceptable to the pilot is reached after the final appeal, the Grievance Chairperson shall submit an appeal to System Board of Adjustment subject to review by the Grievance Review Board.
5. The Grievance Committee shall notify the respective Local Executive Council Representative(s) of the pilot(s) involved. This notification can be done electronically and in a timely manner as practical.
C. SUBMISSION TO SYSTEM BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT FOR NON-DISCIPLINARY GRIEVANCES
1. The Board will determine whether the grievance brought before it seeks to establish a result or pursue an argument that would be contrary to the agreements, commitments, understandings or policies of this organization as the representative of the FedEx pilots.
2. During the MEC Grievance Chairman’s review of a grievance, any concerns that arise with regard to System Board jurisdiction or whether an undesirable result might occur, the MEC Grievance Chairman will contact the grievant to discuss these concerns before a decision is made to invoke a Grievance Review Board (GRB).
3. In the event that the MEC Grievance Chairman makes such determination and the grievant does not agree to withdraw the grievance, the MEC Grievance Chairman shall report his findings to the MEC Chairman.
4. In the event that the MEC Grievance Chairman decides to invoke a GRB, grievant shall be notified in writing by certified mail, return receipt requested. Such notice shall advise the grievant of a hearing before the MEC Grievance Review Board for review of the determination not to submit his grievance to the System Board.
a. The Association may choose to request an extension or file a submission for a grievance to the System Board in order to preserve the right of appeal while awaiting a determination from the Grievance Review Board.
5. The Grievance Review Board shall conduct a hearing within forty-five (45) days of the notice of hearing referenced in 4 above. Said hearing may be conducted by telephone. The MEC Grievance Review Board shall allow the grievant (or representative from a group of grievants) to make a presentation during the said hearing.
6. Disposition:
a. The Grievance Review Board shall make its determination within fourteen (14) days after conclusion of the hearing.
b. If the MEC Grievance Review Board determines that the grievance should not be submitted to the System Board, the grievant shall be so notified by certified mail, return receipt requested.
c. If the MEC Grievance Review Board determines that the grievance should be submitted to the System Board, it shall so direct the MEC Grievance Chairman.
7. After exhausting the process described above, should a grievant(s) reject the determination of the Grievance Chairman and/or Grievance Review Board, or if a grievant determines to represent himself at any time after the filing of the grievance, the following shall apply:
a. The Association shall retain the right to attend all hearings, receive all documentation, remain a party to the System Board, and take any positions on substance or procedure during the grievance process that are deemed necessary to protect or advance the interests of the FDX pilots, even if such positions are adverse to those taken by the grievant.
b. The grievant shall be given access to the grievance process but the Association shall retain administrative control over the grievance process. The Association shall only be responsible for payment of the following:
(1) One-half (1/2) of the hearing room expenses.
(2) One-half (1/2) of the arbitrator’s expense and fees.
(3) One-half (1/2) of the court reporter’s expenses, including the cost of one transcript to be provided to the grievant.
(4) Reasonable expenses of the Association’s System Board members.
c. The grievant shall be responsible for all other expenses associated with the grievance including:
(1) Any attorneys’ fees and related expenses should the grievant decide to retain legal representation. The MEC is under no obligation to provide legal representation to a grievant in these circumstances.
(2) Trip removal and travel expenses for any witnesses called by the grievant, and any other associated administrative expenses.



I'm feeling more like TonyC every day!
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Old 09-18-2015, 10:20 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Raptor View Post
Does this mean the "rolling" deviation bank can keep going forward forever, each month being reduced by 1/2, or will it only go forward for ONE month, then be gone. I haven't seen this question asked in the Q&A and it's unclear to me.
I read it as it keeps rolling forward. Once the excess DBA is added to the next month's bank, the two parts become the bank for that month. There doesn't appear to be any method of segregating them to allow the prior months portion to be "gone".

But, I've been wrong about how I read the contract many times, so a Q&A answer wouldn't hurt.
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Old 09-18-2015, 10:26 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by HIFLYR View Post
He lost all creditably when he put this statement in his post!

“Regardless of class of service actually ticketed, a pilot’s deviation bank shall be credited with the baseline fare for the highest class of service which is authorized on the scheduled deadhead flight, and which exists on that flight.” The Negotiating Committee and the attorneys agree with this point.


When has this worked out for us, I believe the same thing was said about many things before but never goes our way! 380 pay rates come to mind!! Sadly we cannot count on the aggressive contract enforcement via grievances by our own legal team they always want a sure win or they will not fight.

The loop hole is obvious. Just schedule a flat seat on a flight that doesnt offer a higher class of service. Easy to see.
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