Rock

Then I don't have a clue and neither does anyone else, including AS. How many strong leaders do you know that tell you what to do and then say they've "got your back"? AS reminds me of the people who exist in every organization who specialize in b****ing, and offer zero solutions. That's not showing nads. That's just b****ing.
I ask the following in sincere interest. Can you point out specifically in her latest letter, where she provides a single solution to any of the problems she lists? Or any reference to a way ahead other than voting no? I'll I can find is "If it doesn’t look right or feel right to you, then call the go-around. As your PM, I’ll get your flaps and gear, and I have your back." Ok. But then what?! The whole "go-around" analogy would be a lot more clever if it didn't end with making the decision to go around. I'm sure you've flown an actual go around in your flying career. When was the last time you flew an actual missed approach out of an approach that took a turn for the worse, where you hadn't loaded or even briefed a missed approach procedure? But I guess we aren't supposed to be concerned about that. Why? Because AS "has our back". Just push the TOGA button and see what happens. Again, that isn't leadership in my opinion. That's someone who is supposed to be in a leadership position telling people to take a leap of faith.

iarapilot

You do a lot of whining and "fear mongering" over what would be next.
Pathetic. I think with all the posts here and from our ALPA folks, you might be able to figure it out.

You cant even acknowledge that maybe the things she brought up have merit.

Rock

All she is doing is b****ing. Do we REALLY need another list of what no voters don't like about the TA?
I asked you a simple question based on you saying her letter showed "quite a bit of leadership". I simply asked you to point out were she offers a single solution to the problems she lists. Or do you think b****ing is leading? If you do, I think you should feel comfortable saying so. Some people look for different styles of leadership than others. If you're the kind of guy who appreciates people who like to identify problems, but aren't as interested in actually solving them, I can understand why you think AS is a good leader. But if you also appreciate problem solvers, than rather then talk about me, why don't you school me on AS's solutions. I don't see any. Maybe that's because I believe that pushing the TOGA button is nothing more than a decision point. It is what comes next that will either kill you or save you.

Busboy

At least you seem to acknowledge that she is identifying problems in the TA. There is hope, after all.

Raptor

I see your thought, but on APC and to some extent Jetflyers, people are well-versed by this point on the pros and cons. But, there are only about 400 posters here, and 1300 pilots on Jetflyers. Don't you think that her message of listing problems is reaching a significant amount of pilots who haven't heard the message of the Cons before? Those emails go out to everyone in her LEC and they are posted on the MEC website. She is reaching a lot more people than we are on here.

This is the "12 angry men forum" and is ignored by many.

I know that even as of a few days ago, I was having conversations on the crew bus with pilots who had heard virtually nothing of some of the major Cons posted here.

iarapilot

You call it *****ing, others probably see it otherwise. She is doing her job by talking about what she thinks are problems. Call it what you like.

As far the rest of your diatribe, if you cant figure out where I might stand with respect to your questions, it is not worth repeating myself. I am beginning to think that you are looking for a job in management, or are having some kind of panic attack. Honestly.

Rock

Good grief...I have never not acknowledged the endless lists of complaints about the TA. I just don't believe that those complaints outweigh what I believe are the merits of the TA.
95% of what is posted in this forum is complaints about the TA. But as anyone who has ever led anything knows, the easiest thing in the world is to find faults in someone else's work. The REAL challenge is coming up with a solution for those faults. That is what I have been asking for time and time again. Know why I keep asking? Because for the most part, nobody has offered any viable answers. AS is a classic example of that. Her answer is...just vote no. Voting no is NOT a solution. It is a decision. But it's a decision that requires a follow-on solution. This is probably the first time in my flying career I've been associated with a bunch of guys who seem to have forgotten that the ride isn't over until you are in the chocks with the engines shut down.

Rock

So it appears to me that you believe a leader is someone who talks about what they think are problems. Actually solving problems is someone else's responsibility. That explains your perspective and why you think AS is a good leader. It also goes a long way toward explaining why you and I will never appreciate our opposing points of view. Guess what...we don't have to. But at least I understand where you are coming from a little better.

pipe

I think the thing that has dumbfounded most of us is the fact that our elected representatives didn't see all of these items in the TA as problems.

Her draw is the fact that she seems to be in a small minority at the MEC who aren't tone deaf.

You're right, identifying problems isn't solving them - but it is most certainly the first step in the problem solving process. Ignoring problems or failing to identify them is a certain path to failure. A.S. made it to step one - that puts her in the lead MEC-wise.

Pipe

Raptor

I respect your Yes vote (I assume it's yes?). You have thought about it a lot and that's all I can ask. But, I also think that you place too much emphasis on we must have a path forward. If there was a clear path, there would be no need for the NMB, or any angst.

Since there isn't a clear path forward, if this were all economic, I would tend to agree with you. But, there is so much more than some $$ in my pocket that makes me vote No. My path forward is that while I don't know if my economic position will improve by voting NO, I don't dislike the current CBA nearly as much as the TA. I don't think I am losing opportunity cost so much as I'm gaining relief from QOL and work rule changes that I think can be fixed somewhat in a new TA. I think this mainly because the polling will show clearly to the new NC where our pilot lines in the sand are and what's truly important to us.

For many of us, fixing some of these nagging issues is very important. I get to see TNT deal close, I get to see a new President and if the Cadillac tax is repealed or modified, perhaps I get to see other airlines vote for a TA, I get to be polled and provide input moving forward.

The path forward is a series of steps. CD and the MEC have a plan and a path forward--the system will work. It may be creaky, but it will work.

While we are doing that, I believe we will proceed with the SLRWG as it's in all our interests to do that. Then when we vote again, we don't have a black box. We get to see health care costs again and vote on real numbers and not unconstrained 18% of unknown costs. Now that we have had an enormous discussion among the pilots as to what we like and don't like, and what's important to us, I believe we can provide some really, really good direction in our polling where before it was much more abstract. And, most importantly, we now know that we must find a solution to retirement--is it our line in the sand (I think the company CAN afford A plan increases), or must we find a different path forward? Kicking the can down the road doesn't do us any good at all. We need to fix this now.

The path forward will find its own way dynamically. If we were to try to pin it down, we would do a disservice to ourselves by trying to set a static set of conditions.