Are these guys scared, uninformed liars?
10-03-2015, 01:46 PM
#11
Organizational Learning
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Directly behind the combiner
Posts: 4,948
Originally Posted by Laughing_Jakal
We also need to create a more aggressive culture and fight like hell to defend contract wording whatever book we live under.
Why would you consider ratifying language that you know will require us to be more aggressive just to defend?
.
10-03-2015, 02:25 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,336
No matter what contract we are under, I don't think we've done more than just "stridently object" (like Demi Moore in A FEW GOOD MEN) when the company rides roughshod over our agreement. We have already ratified language that we have needed to defend, and I believe no matter how good we write a contract, the company will always push the envelope. It's what they do. I say take the gains, and fight more than we have in the past for any overstep. Even if we negotiated the moon and stars....it is only as good as our willingness to block the door when they try to exploit it. Unless we are willing to do that, any attempt at TOGA or anything else becomes meaningless and empty words.
My words were "we need to create"....because I don't think we have an aggressive culture here now. This implies the need to do it now....while simultaneously securing gains. One does not preclude the other.
Tony, you know me better than that.
My words were "we need to create"....because I don't think we have an aggressive culture here now. This implies the need to do it now....while simultaneously securing gains. One does not preclude the other.
Tony, you know me better than that.
10-03-2015, 02:30 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Position: MD
Posts: 194
It's "strenuously object" from the movie. See, I have a sense of humor and can also focus on insignificant babble. It's called multi-tasking.
A no voter or yes voter, it's irrelevant here on APC. No one is going to change anyone's mind.
There is an indisputable fact however for which we can all agree. The TA is underwhelming at best.
The company took our NC and MEC to school. We have a crew force easily placated by mere crumbs falling from the corporate pie. Unity isn't measured by everyone wearing a lanyard. The fracturing of the crew force (reality) over an embarrassingly weak TA (reality) tells me what we have when it counts. Answer: not much.
A no voter or yes voter, it's irrelevant here on APC. No one is going to change anyone's mind.
There is an indisputable fact however for which we can all agree. The TA is underwhelming at best.
The company took our NC and MEC to school. We have a crew force easily placated by mere crumbs falling from the corporate pie. Unity isn't measured by everyone wearing a lanyard. The fracturing of the crew force (reality) over an embarrassingly weak TA (reality) tells me what we have when it counts. Answer: not much.
Last edited by GetRealDude; 10-03-2015 at 02:43 PM.
10-03-2015, 02:31 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,336
Originally Posted by GetRealDude
It's "strenuously object" from the movie. See, I have a sense of humor and can also focus on insignificant babble. It's called multi-tasking.
10-03-2015, 08:59 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 204
Originally Posted by Laughing_Jakal
No matter what contract we are under, I don't think we've done more than just "stridently object" (like Demi Moore in A FEW GOOD MEN) when the company rides roughshod over our agreement. We have already ratified language that we have needed to defend, and I believe no matter how good we write a contract, the company will always push the envelope. It's what they do. I say take the gains, and fight more than we have in the past for any overstep. Even if we negotiated the moon and stars....it is only as good as our willingness to block the door when they try to exploit it. Unless we are willing to do that, any attempt at TOGA or anything else becomes meaningless and empty words.
My words were "we need to create"....because I don't think we have an aggressive culture here now. This implies the need to do it now....while simultaneously securing gains. One does not preclude the other.
Tony, you know me better than that.
My words were "we need to create"....because I don't think we have an aggressive culture here now. This implies the need to do it now....while simultaneously securing gains. One does not preclude the other.
Tony, you know me better than that.
Time to get off the pot. I bought the new truck. It is a huge improvement over my old truck. A huge improvement for the price? Maybe not, the body styles are hideous, but it is the going price, no matter what I think.
My personal pride ("what I'm worth as a pilot") is unaffected. I have a new truck, it has many attributes that drive me nuts. But it is a better truck than the old one. Calling Go Around, Flaps 28 wouldn't have helped. I would have come back around to the same problem.
This contract may not stroke my ego and tell me "nice pilot, good pilot" in every paragraph. But, it is a solid improvement over what we have now. I won't argue it's positives. To me, that is arguing for the company. But to me, it is an acceptable balance between what we need and what we wish for. Realism and fantasy. I may be proven wrong, but this contract is the truck I bought - realism and realistic, and not the fantasy I wish for.
For those calling for Go Around, I'm not sure you checked the weather at your alternate. When I look at the world economy, the visibility is coming down fast and the runways are not Cat III capable.
10-03-2015, 09:10 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
But, we're at least 2 dots below the glide slope, low on airspeed and the captain is just smiling and talking about how great this landing is going to be. I say we go around, pull the capt of out his seat, replace him with one of the jumpseating captains, enter holding until we get our sh!t together and come around for another approach.
All this airplane talk is cool.
All this airplane talk is cool.
Last edited by Busboy; 10-03-2015 at 09:32 PM.
10-03-2015, 09:15 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Position: MD
Posts: 194
Originally Posted by LightAttack
I've needed a new truck for many, many years. I haven't liked any of the new trucks. It finally came to the point that I had to buy a new one or sink a ton of new money into the old truck. But the new trucks weren't what I wanted. Didn't like the body style, didn't like the ergonomics, etc. Unfortunately, the next year's trucks were even worse (Ford had an aluminum frame for crying out loud - heresy).
Time to get off the pot. I bought the new truck. It is a huge improvement over my old truck. A huge improvement for the price? Maybe not, the body styles are hideous, but it is the going price, no matter what I think.
My personal pride ("what I'm worth as a pilot") is unaffected. I have a new truck, it has many attributes that drive me nuts. But it is a better truck than the old one. Calling Go Around, Flaps 28 wouldn't have helped. I would have come back around to the same problem.
This contract may not stroke my ego and tell me "nice pilot, good pilot" in every paragraph. But, it is a solid improvement over what we have now. I won't argue it's positives. To me, that is arguing for the company. But to me, it is an acceptable balance between what we need and what we wish for. Realism and fantasy. I may be proven wrong, but this contract is the truck I bought - realism and realistic, and not the fantasy I wish for.
For those calling for Go Around, I'm not sure you checked the weather at your alternate. When I look at the world economy, the visibility is coming down fast and the runways are not Cat III capable.
Time to get off the pot. I bought the new truck. It is a huge improvement over my old truck. A huge improvement for the price? Maybe not, the body styles are hideous, but it is the going price, no matter what I think.
My personal pride ("what I'm worth as a pilot") is unaffected. I have a new truck, it has many attributes that drive me nuts. But it is a better truck than the old one. Calling Go Around, Flaps 28 wouldn't have helped. I would have come back around to the same problem.
This contract may not stroke my ego and tell me "nice pilot, good pilot" in every paragraph. But, it is a solid improvement over what we have now. I won't argue it's positives. To me, that is arguing for the company. But to me, it is an acceptable balance between what we need and what we wish for. Realism and fantasy. I may be proven wrong, but this contract is the truck I bought - realism and realistic, and not the fantasy I wish for.
For those calling for Go Around, I'm not sure you checked the weather at your alternate. When I look at the world economy, the visibility is coming down fast and the runways are not Cat III capable.
10-03-2015, 10:31 PM
#18
Organizational Learning
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Directly behind the combiner
Posts: 4,948
"Yeah, we were at 1,000' AGL doing 1,500 feet per minute, and I realized right then that the gear wasn't down, but I figured landing was the safer course of action."
Who among us, upon reading this safety report would not marvel at how stupid that pilot was?
I thought we were supposed to approach these landing thingies with the mentality that we would go around, and be pleasantly surprised if we could land. We're not on fire. The wing is not about to fall off. The world is not about to stop rotating on its axis or revolving around the sun if we take it around, run the appropriate checklists, check the weather, and line our ducks up for another shot.
If we were simply talking about hourly pay rates or some other quality of life issues, I might understand the willingness to suck it up and take what we can get now. But that's a very shortsighted perspective when you consider we're talking about the very last paycheck you may ever collect, the retirement check. I intend to retire healthy and collect a whole lot of those things, and I'm not willing to accept a quick, meager payout of pay rate increase now to sacrifice the future we deserve. Landing this pig now won't win me any awards, and it will in fact result in another one of those "I should have gone around" moments.
Fascination with the Goal -- it doesn't usually lead to the best decisions.
"we hope that your decision will be to join us in our yes vote." Why? Do you need that affirmation?
.
Who among us, upon reading this safety report would not marvel at how stupid that pilot was?
I thought we were supposed to approach these landing thingies with the mentality that we would go around, and be pleasantly surprised if we could land. We're not on fire. The wing is not about to fall off. The world is not about to stop rotating on its axis or revolving around the sun if we take it around, run the appropriate checklists, check the weather, and line our ducks up for another shot.
If we were simply talking about hourly pay rates or some other quality of life issues, I might understand the willingness to suck it up and take what we can get now. But that's a very shortsighted perspective when you consider we're talking about the very last paycheck you may ever collect, the retirement check. I intend to retire healthy and collect a whole lot of those things, and I'm not willing to accept a quick, meager payout of pay rate increase now to sacrifice the future we deserve. Landing this pig now won't win me any awards, and it will in fact result in another one of those "I should have gone around" moments.
Fascination with the Goal -- it doesn't usually lead to the best decisions.
"we hope that your decision will be to join us in our yes vote." Why? Do you need that affirmation?
.
10-04-2015, 11:23 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Gear Monkey
Posts: 3,191
Originally Posted by LightAttack
I've needed a new truck for many, many years. I haven't liked any of the new trucks. It finally came to the point that I had to buy a new one or sink a ton of new money into the old truck. But the new trucks weren't what I wanted. Didn't like the body style, didn't like the ergonomics, etc. Unfortunately, the next year's trucks were even worse (Ford had an aluminum frame for crying out loud - heresy).
Time to get off the pot. I bought the new truck. It is a huge improvement over my old truck. A huge improvement for the price? Maybe not, the body styles are hideous, but it is the going price, no matter what I think.
My personal pride ("what I'm worth as a pilot") is unaffected. I have a new truck, it has many attributes that drive me nuts. But it is a better truck than the old one. Calling Go Around, Flaps 28 wouldn't have helped. I would have come back around to the same problem.
This contract may not stroke my ego and tell me "nice pilot, good pilot" in every paragraph. But, it is a solid improvement over what we have now. I won't argue it's positives. To me, that is arguing for the company. But to me, it is an acceptable balance between what we need and what we wish for. Realism and fantasy. I may be proven wrong, but this contract is the truck I bought - realism and realistic, and not the fantasy I wish for.
For those calling for Go Around, I'm not sure you checked the weather at your alternate. When I look at the world economy, the visibility is coming down fast and the runways are not Cat III capable.
Time to get off the pot. I bought the new truck. It is a huge improvement over my old truck. A huge improvement for the price? Maybe not, the body styles are hideous, but it is the going price, no matter what I think.
My personal pride ("what I'm worth as a pilot") is unaffected. I have a new truck, it has many attributes that drive me nuts. But it is a better truck than the old one. Calling Go Around, Flaps 28 wouldn't have helped. I would have come back around to the same problem.
This contract may not stroke my ego and tell me "nice pilot, good pilot" in every paragraph. But, it is a solid improvement over what we have now. I won't argue it's positives. To me, that is arguing for the company. But to me, it is an acceptable balance between what we need and what we wish for. Realism and fantasy. I may be proven wrong, but this contract is the truck I bought - realism and realistic, and not the fantasy I wish for.
For those calling for Go Around, I'm not sure you checked the weather at your alternate. When I look at the world economy, the visibility is coming down fast and the runways are not Cat III capable.
Did they mention a 7 or 8 year option?
To whom's benefits were the longer term?
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