Fdx cgn hkg
08-20-2016, 09:29 PM
#51
Organizational Learning
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Directly behind the combiner
Posts: 4,948
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
Huck, the issue on that was always with the married pilots (not trying to defend the company's stance there). Single people can maintain a foreign residence IAW the FedEx FDA rules and do whatever the hell they want on their days off.
The behavior of our employer in that particular case may in fact lead to other charges, as they appear to have crossed lines in persuading or attempting to persuade individuals to drop their state complaints.
May the Four not be Forgotten.
By the way, I would have supported a "Days Test." As long as the pilot remained in the predetermined area a certain number of days, he would qualify for the Housing Allowance. Days flying trips would count, training days, days commuting in, out ... several other provisions. I would support requiring FDA pilots to be in their Foreign Duty location the same number of days that the CBA requires a Memphis based pilot to be in Memphis.
Seemed fair.
.
08-21-2016, 05:31 AM
#52
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Position: AA 737 FO
Posts: 65
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
I don't know if anyone commutes consistently. I know one single person who kind of time shares between the US and Germany but does have a company provided residence over there. Also, no idea about movement and time to hold a line there.
Looking at the lines in CGN, they really don't look like they're set up to be commuter friendly. There are no single departure lines (i.e. one long trip you could commute to, fly, commute home and be done for the month). During the 4-week bid months (8 months a year), there are lines that work week-on/week-off, two trips per month. If you could hold those, that would probably be reasonable. Most of them are double deadhead trips, so they start and finish somewhere other than CGN (like Basel, Amsterdam, Budapest or Paris). So you would either have to get to CGN the day before the trip started and use the scheduled transportation to start the trip or commute straight to the city in question from DC.
Unfortunately, there are also lines with 3 or 4 trips more scattered around the month. Those really don't look commutable and you would probably end up dropping trips and/or trying to massage your schedule to make it work which may not be possible depending on manning and available trips.
The 5-week months (4 months a year) have a minimum of 3 trips. Some are just an extended version of the week-on/week-off above with an extra trip. The challenge might be meshing that month with the previous month. You might end up with two trips back to back (if they're legal that way) or some dead days in CGN before your next one starts. Again, there are also a number of lines without much of a "pattern" or too few days between trips to allow a commute home.
So, if you were able to get reasonably senior in CGN, I think a commute from the east coast would be okay for a while. Early on, especially to reserve, would be tough. My guess is you'd spend more time in CGN than you would at home on days off. It kind of depends on what sort of commute you're already used to and where your pain threshold lies.
If I was going to commute to a foreign domicile, I'd pick HKG. One ugly commute a month to a single departure line. Not perfect but probably less dead time in domicile and maybe less actual commute time compared to CGN.
Looking at the lines in CGN, they really don't look like they're set up to be commuter friendly. There are no single departure lines (i.e. one long trip you could commute to, fly, commute home and be done for the month). During the 4-week bid months (8 months a year), there are lines that work week-on/week-off, two trips per month. If you could hold those, that would probably be reasonable. Most of them are double deadhead trips, so they start and finish somewhere other than CGN (like Basel, Amsterdam, Budapest or Paris). So you would either have to get to CGN the day before the trip started and use the scheduled transportation to start the trip or commute straight to the city in question from DC.
Unfortunately, there are also lines with 3 or 4 trips more scattered around the month. Those really don't look commutable and you would probably end up dropping trips and/or trying to massage your schedule to make it work which may not be possible depending on manning and available trips.
The 5-week months (4 months a year) have a minimum of 3 trips. Some are just an extended version of the week-on/week-off above with an extra trip. The challenge might be meshing that month with the previous month. You might end up with two trips back to back (if they're legal that way) or some dead days in CGN before your next one starts. Again, there are also a number of lines without much of a "pattern" or too few days between trips to allow a commute home.
So, if you were able to get reasonably senior in CGN, I think a commute from the east coast would be okay for a while. Early on, especially to reserve, would be tough. My guess is you'd spend more time in CGN than you would at home on days off. It kind of depends on what sort of commute you're already used to and where your pain threshold lies.
If I was going to commute to a foreign domicile, I'd pick HKG. One ugly commute a month to a single departure line. Not perfect but probably less dead time in domicile and maybe less actual commute time compared to CGN.
Thanks Alderdriver, exactly the intel I was looking for. Appreciate it.
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08-21-2016, 05:52 AM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
Got a few who commute HKG. When I considered commuting it for years, most trips were shorter and I think it would have required a lot of trading or dropping trips here or there. By the time I could hold it, we decided to move here. Guess what? Now there are a bunch of single departure lines.
Its doable. It aint easy, and it will hurt, but you could do it.
Its doable. It aint easy, and it will hurt, but you could do it.
08-21-2016, 01:00 PM
#54
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 46
Thanks Tony for providing information about FDA assignments. I'm privy to some of the same information about where the FDA policy is heading.
Presently ALPA and FedEx are in general agreement about the basic legality of the FDA housing allowance and relocation policy which requires the acquiescence of a spouse in order to be compliant with eligibility for the benefit. That also includes complicated child custody agreements. As Tony pointed out, that violates certain laws. So, ALPA's agreement to the company policy puts our Association at legal risk. ALPA is liable. They can be sued. Marital-status discrimination laws are operative in 20 states. It does not violate federal law to discriminate on the basis of marital-status, but FedEx policy pretends to be non-discriminatory on that class. Regardless, as now established in an Alaska court, a state can exercise jurisdiction over its anti-discrimination laws, even if some aspects of the discrimination occur overseas. That jurisdiction is based on the “effects doctrine.” If the effects reach back to an employee's state, then the company's actions are the same as if the discrimination occurred wholly within that state.
The same application of legal principles also applies to anyone who might have bid for an FDA but didn't because of their marital status. That entire class of people can file complaints in their respective states (as long as their resident states have laws against marital status discrimination) without actually having jumped through the wickets of working in an FDA. Although the company can't legally retaliate, they will. But, that is grounds for yet another complaint. That is not for the faint of heart.
FedEx will appeal the Alaska court ruling but it will be affirmed by the Alaska Supreme Court, as well as Federal Courts. While that plays out, there will be pressure on a criminal investigation of various FedEx managers, lawyers, and executives. As Tony implied, it will center around how the company coerced, and attempted to coerce others to settle their discrimination complaints. That will be a far more involved process but it could end up with executives and managers personally facing felony charges.
To the point of this thread, a married pilot who has property, family, and interests outside an FDA, bids that assignment at their own risk. That risk also includes a pilot's military obligations. The company has already disciplined one such case, which is not generally known. That pilot only escaped termination because the company stepped well over the line in regard to ESGR law. That pilot had to pay back several thousands of dollars in housing allowance, all wrongfully required by FedEx. I can't recommend bidding an FDA if anyone is married, has children, or has reserve military obligations. For now, total conformity to the company's interpretation of the contract and law is paramount. That won't change very soon, but it will.
Presently ALPA and FedEx are in general agreement about the basic legality of the FDA housing allowance and relocation policy which requires the acquiescence of a spouse in order to be compliant with eligibility for the benefit. That also includes complicated child custody agreements. As Tony pointed out, that violates certain laws. So, ALPA's agreement to the company policy puts our Association at legal risk. ALPA is liable. They can be sued. Marital-status discrimination laws are operative in 20 states. It does not violate federal law to discriminate on the basis of marital-status, but FedEx policy pretends to be non-discriminatory on that class. Regardless, as now established in an Alaska court, a state can exercise jurisdiction over its anti-discrimination laws, even if some aspects of the discrimination occur overseas. That jurisdiction is based on the “effects doctrine.” If the effects reach back to an employee's state, then the company's actions are the same as if the discrimination occurred wholly within that state.
The same application of legal principles also applies to anyone who might have bid for an FDA but didn't because of their marital status. That entire class of people can file complaints in their respective states (as long as their resident states have laws against marital status discrimination) without actually having jumped through the wickets of working in an FDA. Although the company can't legally retaliate, they will. But, that is grounds for yet another complaint. That is not for the faint of heart.
FedEx will appeal the Alaska court ruling but it will be affirmed by the Alaska Supreme Court, as well as Federal Courts. While that plays out, there will be pressure on a criminal investigation of various FedEx managers, lawyers, and executives. As Tony implied, it will center around how the company coerced, and attempted to coerce others to settle their discrimination complaints. That will be a far more involved process but it could end up with executives and managers personally facing felony charges.
To the point of this thread, a married pilot who has property, family, and interests outside an FDA, bids that assignment at their own risk. That risk also includes a pilot's military obligations. The company has already disciplined one such case, which is not generally known. That pilot only escaped termination because the company stepped well over the line in regard to ESGR law. That pilot had to pay back several thousands of dollars in housing allowance, all wrongfully required by FedEx. I can't recommend bidding an FDA if anyone is married, has children, or has reserve military obligations. For now, total conformity to the company's interpretation of the contract and law is paramount. That won't change very soon, but it will.
08-21-2016, 01:23 PM
#55
Fly it like you stole it!
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 136
Commuting to HKG
I commute from PBI to HKG. It's tough but it's doable. Generally all of our trips for HKG based pilots start and end with a deadhead out of HKG. Either air travel or ground travel. The company allows us to deviate and use those funds for travel to and from where the trip starts and ends. I have spent only about $2000 of my own money since last October; the rest was covered by our deviation policy. I made Executive Platinum on Amaerican in less than three months. I'm on a three day layover (to short to Jumpseat home for me) that will be pay for by my deviation/ travel bank. If I don't use all the funds in my deviation/travel bank, 50% can now roll to the previous month or the next month. I know of at least two Captains and four FOs that commute. We commute from all over the U.S. One other FO and I commute from South Florida. Again it can be done but it will beat you up. I do it because I have some issues with my daughter, it's worth it for me. Hope this helps.
08-23-2016, 10:01 AM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
Originally Posted by Noise
I had heard that CGN pilots are required to live in Germany due to tax purposes. Is this true? I'm looking into FDX for the CGN base, but would be commuting from AMS. Thanks
08-23-2016, 12:13 PM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 1,804
Originally Posted by FDXLAG
Actually they are required to leave Germany prior to five years for tax purposes. You can live wherever you want but if you want the contract extras you have to live within 100 nm of CGN.
08-24-2016, 06:42 PM
#59
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 46
I had a good question via PM. Can retired pilots file state discrimination claims against FedEx for lost income because of the company's discriminatory FDA policy which existed while they were hired?
The short answer is absolutely yes. There are a couple of caveats. The claim has to be legitimate. Basically, if you can make a case that the FedEx FDA policy prevented you from bidding the FDA assignment because of spousal concerns, which include the agreement of a spouse to relocate to the satisfaction of the uncertain company metrics, then it is likely you have a legiitmate complaint. But, you have to to also be a resident of one of the states which prohibit marital status discrimination. Alaska is just one of those states. Those states currently are: AK, CA, CN, DE, FL, HI, IL, ML, MN, MT, ML, NE, NH, NJ, NY, ND, OR, VA, WA, WI.
The retired, or almost retired, class of pilots are a good group to exercise their civil rights. They are either bullet-proof or almost bullet-proof from company retaliation. In some cases there might be statute of limitation issues.
It isn't that hard to file a complaint. I think it's absolutely free in every state. So, imagine the FedEx lawyers having to deal with scores of legitimate state civil rights complaints over their errant policy. That's how change happens.
The short answer is absolutely yes. There are a couple of caveats. The claim has to be legitimate. Basically, if you can make a case that the FedEx FDA policy prevented you from bidding the FDA assignment because of spousal concerns, which include the agreement of a spouse to relocate to the satisfaction of the uncertain company metrics, then it is likely you have a legiitmate complaint. But, you have to to also be a resident of one of the states which prohibit marital status discrimination. Alaska is just one of those states. Those states currently are: AK, CA, CN, DE, FL, HI, IL, ML, MN, MT, ML, NE, NH, NJ, NY, ND, OR, VA, WA, WI.
The retired, or almost retired, class of pilots are a good group to exercise their civil rights. They are either bullet-proof or almost bullet-proof from company retaliation. In some cases there might be statute of limitation issues.
It isn't that hard to file a complaint. I think it's absolutely free in every state. So, imagine the FedEx lawyers having to deal with scores of legitimate state civil rights complaints over their errant policy. That's how change happens.
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