Hi everyone,
I’m new to the Airline Pilot Central Forums and have a couple of questions about the industry and some advice on next steps in my flight training journey.

I recently joined a Part 141 university program this fall with my Private Pilot Certificate. The way the program is structured, I’m doing commercial time-building this semester and will start my instrument training in the spring.

Since joining, I’ve already been through four instructors and honestly feel pretty lost in the program. My first instructor started pawning me off to two others, and one of them wasn’t great to work with. When I brought this up to the chief flight instructor, I got the typical “Did you fill out the instructor change form?” response and was basically brushed off. I ended up getting the dean and one of my professors involved, and only then did the chief assign me to someone he considered solid. My new instructor has been decent so far, but I’m worried that once I switch instructors again for instrument training, I’ll be back to square one. It all feels like a temporary band-aid.

Recently, I found a local Part 61/141 family-owned flight school across the airport. I’ve flown there twice and really like the environment and instruction. My question is: would it be much of a setback if I continued training there instead? I’d still stay enrolled in my university to finish the degree — just without the flight portion.

I understand the hour differences for the ratings, but I’m wondering: is R-ATP really worth sticking it out at a university program that’s been so frustrating and uninspiring?

 

Lot to be said for a school where you feel good about it, and they can schedule you to fly consistently.

R-ATP wouldn't normally be that big of a deal, but it depends on what's going on with the industry when you're ready for the airlines. If regional hiring is competitive (it is at the moment), then it won't matter as much, since more applicants will tend to higher time anyway.

But it also matters *who* they are hiring, if it's mostly people from cadet type channels, then maybe you need to be involved in one of those, and I assume they are more available at a 141 university (but maybe it doesn't matter where you train as long as you attend the university).

 

Seconding what RIck7777 said - right now RATP isn't a time saver to advance your career when regionals aren't starving for new pilots unlike the recent past. The other thing you can do at a Part 61/91 school is get your ratings as fast as you can move vs the required, slower, Part 141 schedule. Young man I helped went from zero to 280 hrs PPL/Comm/Inst in 13 months while also knocking out a semester of college. He should have his CFI within 14 (?) months of starting while working full time for 10 months and accomplishing a semester of college.

Personally I'd recommend getting your flying resume ASAP and doing college online after you've gotten your ratings and are flying for a living. It's about who's got the best resume relative to their age that matters in this industry and who's flying professional first (20 yrs old is possible) while getting their 4 yr degree before they're competitive for a major airline job (23 yrs old is possible if you fly first). College first, or mixed with a flying program, typically doesn't get you flying the 800-1000 hrs a year until you're 22 yrs old. That means competitive for the next step up the resume/career ladder at 23-25 while the 'fly first' candidates can move up at 21-22 yrs old. What's 2 yrs difference early in your career? Not much. What's 2 MORE years as a w/b Captain at the END of you career? That's HUGE. Talking with a friend this week, he pulled in $1.4 million in the last 2 years. For $1.4 million would you hustle more?

 

I agree with the get the ratings as fast as possible (without going crazy with cost) and putting off the degree until working at a regional. However in this market practically nobody is getting hired outside of cadet pathways. So I can't recommend taking any other path right now to get to the airlines as fast as possible. There are a mix of stand-alone 141 schools and college programs so pick one that is faster. Part 61 might be faster for private and instrument but a good 141 should have a waiver to get the commercial with far less than 250 hours, they should also have examining authority for some ratings which will reduce DPE costs and delays. It's kinda stupid to buy hours instead of getting paid as a CFI.

 

In my experience (a bit dated these days) 141 *always* charged enough of a premium that the cost to CPL was a wash at best. The scam was people knew to aviation (or their parents) just compared the total program cost... 141 could deliver the ratings for a comparable cost but with less logged flight time, and of course the school would just pocket the 50-60 hours saved on airplane time.

Also... getting all rating plus CPL wrapped up right at the 141 190 hour minimum can be sporting, more likely you'll need more anyway.

And in 61 you have the option, once CPL tasks are mastered, of training for CFI in the right seat as you work towards 250 hours. Yes you can even take the CPL checkride in the right seat, most examiners are fine with that. I recall a guy who took the CFI ride a couple days after CPL. That's a better use of that last 50 hours than hamburger runs.

 

As we start down the flight training, college search process, what I’m discovering in my son is he wants to fly planes, but he also wants to pick his own major. Not aviation management or similar. This throws RATP out the window, but opens other training paths. I am worried about getting flight training down while studying for a non aviation major,,,,

 

I'm pretty sure you could knock out all ratings up to CFI in four years, especially if you commit summers to flying.

Location (weather) could be a factor though, and also need a good local school that can consistently accommodate your schedule. Depending on finances, an option might be to find a good local instructor and commit do fly a certain amount with him/her, in exchange for preferential scheduling. Would also need reliable rentals available (we have plenty in my area, but might hard in some places)... or maybe just buy a plane.

Might be harder if the degree is in engineering, or a few other STEM majors which tend to high workloads. But even then, if you buckle down during the school you should be able to keep your summers mostly free. Or five-year program.

Personally if my kid wanted to get a decent major and do flight training in college, I'd write some checks to facilitate that (not entirely a hypothetical, I'll know soon).

 

Your son may be wiser than he realizes. Aside from checking the “degree” box on applications, there is real value in having a non-aviation, marketable degree as a backup plan. Engineering, business, nursing, whatever his passion (aside from flying) might be. Maybe he medicals out at a young age, maybe he decides flying isn’t for him, maybe another black swan means no hiring for half a decade, maybe…

Yes it will be more work to get a real degree and do his ratings at the same time. Does he want to spend his college years partying and playing, or investing 4 years of hard work for a payoff the rest of his life? You're going to pay for the degree either way, might as well get some value out of it.

This is the route I went decades ago, and the route I strongly advocate for the young folks that I mentor.

 

I was ratp eligible at 1000 hours. I got hired at a 121 airline with 1700 hours. That’s without any training failures, skeletons. In today’s market it’s not worth it. A few years ago it might have saved you 6-9 months of instructing. Today, you’re less competitive because everyone else has 500 more hours than you.

 

Many routes to accomplish the same end goal. Another one to consider that’s been tossed around is to attended a community college while simultaneously working on flight training. Obtain an associates degree of your choosing (also getting all the general ed classes out of the way) while completing flight training at the same time. Ideally, done in 2-3 years with both and have reached ~1-1,500hrs instructing. Get hired on with a regional airline (or a part 135 operator, whatever suits the next step) and then complete a bachelor’s degree online.

This route has the potential to save a few years by getting the requisite experience needed for a job at a major airline while the other student is still finishing the last half of that in-person/on-campus 4 year degree. That, and maybe save a few bucks in the process 🤷‍♂️