WEACLRS

I have talked with two FAA inspectors about this question. I talked last night with my acquaintance in the Orlando FSDO and I was in a meeting today with my airline's POI (Washington DC FSDO), and ran the question by both. The answers were consistent and emphatic. And a little surprising to me in that the answers were more constricting than I first thought.

In their comments to me, the scenario presented above is definitely a part 135 operation. A basic 250 hr commercial pilot cannot legally take that flight. Period. The NTSB has had cases like this and has ruled them (after the accidents that occurred) as belonging in part 135 and has upheld the FAA certificate actions.

Rickair7777, I was inclined to agree with you that a flight instructor could make the flight by giving dual instruction. But apparently not. There has been a recent case, which both POI's quoted, where the NTSB upheld the violation of a MEI who was "giving instruction" to a client while enroute to the client's home destination in the client's multi-engine airplane. The flight ended in an incident the FAA investigated. It was found that the purpose of the flight was not instruction, but to take the client and his airplane to its destination, even though the Flight Instructor said he was giving dual. The FAA found the flight was really an illegal part 135 operation and pulled the CFI's instructor and commercial certificates. Flight instruction has to have legitimate instructional purpose, i.e., part of a training syllabus, training program, re-currency, checkout, bi-annual, etc. We all know what was really happening here. The MEI was trying to build multi-time. I cost him his career.

It is perfectly fine for a green commercial pilot to become the private corporate pilot for a single or even two or three private individuals/corporations (PIC or SIC as long as the insurance company approves and, if the aircraft requires a type rating, the commercial pilot must meet the requirements of the type). That's private carriage. Both POI's said just make sure you have a contract. If however you start letting it be known around the airport that you're available to fly whatever, whenever, or it appears that you are through your flight activity, or you start ending up with a lot of clients, now you are holding out and subject to part 135.

Both POI's had the following advice to the new commercial pilot: the list of commercial activities you may receive compensation for is in 119.1(e). Don't stray. That said they also admitted the only way they would probably catch you was after the accident or maybe on a ramp check.

Hope this helps.

mistarose

Wow, well thats some pretty strong artillary to go into a stage check, and checkride with. I am going to examine this discussion closesly, highlight the FAR's that back it up, and study hard, and hopefully they will either agree with me, or through our disagreement - agree with me how "unclear" the FAR's really are leading too so many different interpretations.

This whole discussion has been very helpful, I have one more question. Whats the deal with the contract and private carriage. What sortuf contract are you talking about, is it a legal agreement to only take them, or their company etc.?

Thanks!

rickair7777

It didn't used to be this way...my FSDO gave us different answers to the same questions. It used to be legit to give instruction whenever a pilot thought he needed it, not just when the regs say he needs it. I did plenty of area fam flights in SOCALs very busy and complicated airspace...what are those clowns thinking? Don't they have better things to do???

So it sounds like you flying a client provided airplane is still 135?

rickair7777

Just a contract to perform service. Could just be flying, could include providing security, washing the limo, trimming the shrubs etc.

I have a buddy who worked full time as a pilot for an ex-NFL guy who owned a bunch of strip clubs. He was always doing something else for the guy when he wasn't flying...but the fringe benefits were unbelievable, the guy had an entourage of strippers....

mistarose

Okay so a commercial pilot has to be careful when he advertises or holds out. It's okay to advertise that you simply are a Commercial Pilot, but as far as the operations you are willing to conduct...

You can say you will do anything in 119.1 of course, cause thats all fine and dandy, I am trying to get a better understanding of private carriage.

I understand what private carriage is, but what I don't understand is how you can begin a contract with someone for private carriage... If I am sitting in the FBO and some guy walks in and needs a COMM pilot to fly him in his plane back home for whatever reason, and I accept, is getting a 135 cert. or signing a contract saying you will fly him and only him in that specific plane? Me sitting in the FBO just reading an aviation magazine can be viewed by some as holding out I guess, and since I just got my Comm certificate, I am pretty much down to fly anyone anywhere as long as they ask me and provide the aircraft...

But then it begins to look like common carriage... A holding out or willingness too, transport persons or property, from place to place, for compensation. I think its that AC that mentions someone who gains a repuation to sign a contract for private carriage operations too almost anyone that offers (or like anyone thats in a club inwhich the club is easy to join, and almost anyone could join) can be viewed as the pilot being in operational control, and needing a 135 cert.

It's early, sorry for the garbled paragraphs - if 119.1 and private carriage operations are all a comm pilot can do without obtaining a special 121, 125 or 135 certificate, then I feel its important to understand all ends of the private carriage scheme.

Thanks!

rickair7777

The contract shows a more thought out and careful approach to the relationship with the customer. It also emplies a longer term employment, where you are actually an employee or at least a contractor..

However, if you sat in the FBO with a stack of pre-printed contracts for single-leg commercial flights, that would obviously be holding out...

mistarose

roger, thanks

Pilotpip

Rickair,

I don't think that an area familiarization flight would be considered holding out. That's a legit reason for flight training. If I'm in a mountainous or busy area you bet I'd want to fly with somebody familiar. I'll ask my POI some of these questions next time he's in and post my findings here as well.

WEACLRS

Yea, this has been bugging me too. So I called the Orlando inspector again today and got some more clarification about this case.

Any pilot can come to a CFI and say "hey I need some dual in this or that area". The FAA absolutely sees that as legitimate instructional activity. Chuck Yeager himself could ask any CFI for instruction and it would be instructional activity and would be fine.

What this MEI was doing was going out and actively soliciting multi-engine aicraft owners and asking to fly right seat in their aircraft and telling the owners "we'll call it dual". He was then logging the time as PIC. He was taking advatage of his status as a MEI to build multi-time. No real instructional activity was ocurring. That was the problem the FAA had and the NTSB upheld it. The FAA is in no-way limiting a CFI when it comes to giving instruction. In our example, if a pilot comes into a FBO and says "I'm uncomfortable flying at night in my aircraft and I want some dual instruction on my way home. Can someone help me?" That would be fine. If a pilot comes into an FBO and a MEI flight instructor jumps up and says, "hey, can I fly right seat in your C310? We'll just call it dual..." he's in trouble.

Under the scenario presented earlier, yep.

WEACLRS

Please do. I'd love to know if the answer is consistent.