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Commercial Checkride

Old 02-11-2006, 07:39 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by WEACLRS
Operational control is defined in 14 CFR Part 1.1 - "Operational control, with respect to a flight means the exercise of authority over initiating, conducting or terminating a flight."

Pilot in command is defined in Part 1.1 - "means the person who: (1) has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight; (2) has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and (3) holds the appropriate category...

You as the commercial pilot (assuming the aircraft owner is just a private pilot) will be PIC and you do have operational control. The order in which Part 61 describes pilot certification is not random, ie, private - commercial - ATP - CFI. It's in that order for a reason. My job description as a regional airline captain and our company's Flight Operations and Procedures Manual quotes these definitions verbatim. And as PIC I don't arrange to buy the airplane, maintain it, pay for it, even put it in position for it's scheduled flight. I just fly it.
If the person who has operational control, is the person who decides when to terminate the flight ( in the air ) or before departure, choosing not to depart. And PIC is the one who has final authority to make these decisions...

Doesn't that make the PIC the one who always has operational control? It doesn't make sense, even in your situation where you "don't arrange to buy the airplane, maintain it, pay for it, or even put it in position for the flight." You still have operational control since you have final authority to terminate the flight.

Please tell me that I am wrong, since that would make any and every flight have to conduct operations under Part 135, except for 119.1 flights.

Thanks
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Old 02-13-2006, 05:57 PM
  #42  
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I might be wrong here but operational control might apply to help a company have a check system against one of its captains. ie the company decides they want their airplane to land but the PIC says no its safe to stay up (or any other argument) then the company has operating control of what that airplane does.

If anyone else knows diffrent chip in please
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Old 02-15-2006, 08:37 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by mistarose
If the person who has operational control, is the person who decides when to terminate the flight ( in the air ) or before departure, choosing not to depart. And PIC is the one who has final authority to make these decisions...

Doesn't that make the PIC the one who always has operational control? It doesn't make sense, even in your situation where you "don't arrange to buy the airplane, maintain it, pay for it, or even put it in position for the flight." You still have operational control since you have final authority to terminate the flight.

Please tell me that I am wrong, since that would make any and every flight have to conduct operations under Part 135, except for 119.1 flights.

Thanks
Sorry for the delay in response. I've been on a trip...

I hope I understand what you are asking correctly. To answer though, two things. Is the flight for compensation or hire? If so, then who has operational control? The PIC is certainly one of those people, but I believe the owner of the aircraft would be another, and in a part 121 operation at an airline the dispatcher also has that authority. In fact, in my manuals the following statment is made: "persons who have authority to excercise operational control is delegated by order of precedence. Operational control is defined in FAR Part 1 as 'the exercise of authority over initiating, conducting, and terminating a flight.' Those person are: 1) Pilot in command, and 2) the Dispatcher." At my company the ONLY people who can dispatch a flight are the PIC AND Dispatcher. We both have to agree to go. Company management cannot force us to fly. However, company management can cancel a flight or ask us to terminate a flight already in the air. And of course this manual is specifically approved by our POI and the FAA.

If the flight is not for compensation or hire, say a typical trip for you and your buddies to get a $100 hambuger, the question is still important as to who has operational control, but mostly from a standpoint of who is PIC on the flight, who will get to make the final decisions and log the PIC time. Those flights are not part 135.
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Old 02-18-2006, 12:15 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by WEACLRS
It is perfectly fine for a green commercial pilot to become the private corporate pilot for a single or even two or three private individuals/corporations (PIC or SIC as long as the insurance company approves and, if the aircraft requires a type rating, the commercial pilot must meet the requirements of the type). That's private carriage. Both POI's said just make sure you have a contract. If however you start letting it be known around the airport that you're available to fly whatever, whenever, or it appears that you are through your flight activity, or you start ending up with a lot of clients, now you are holding out and subject to part 135.
Great discussion guys. Just wanted to get some clarification with WEACLRS' statement.

If I were a commercial pilot, owned a Chieftain, and wanted to engage in private carriage of cargo only with no more than 3 contracts. Is it legal for me to offer the transportation to 3 selected (by me; I'd seek the customers) companies? or would that be considered holding out?

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Old 02-18-2006, 04:55 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Hot Sauce
Great discussion guys. Just wanted to get some clarification with WEACLRS' statement.

If I were a commercial pilot, owned a Chieftain, and wanted to engage in private carriage of cargo only with no more than 3 contracts. Is it legal for me to offer the transportation to 3 selected (by me; I'd seek the customers) companies? or would that be considered holding out?

Thanks
That would be really pushing it...If this is non-hypothetical and you're really considering this, talk to the FSDO for your area and get a WRITTEN opinion.
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Old 02-20-2006, 07:29 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Hot Sauce
Great discussion guys. Just wanted to get some clarification with WEACLRS' statement.

If I were a commercial pilot, owned a Chieftain, and wanted to engage in private carriage of cargo only with no more than 3 contracts. Is it legal for me to offer the transportation to 3 selected (by me; I'd seek the customers) companies? or would that be considered holding out?

Thanks
You are holding out. You are seeking customers. That activity is not listed in 119.1(e). So its probably part 135. But why push it? If you meet the flight time experience, you'll find getting a single pilot part 135 cert not that tough (especially if you intend to only carry cargo and your op specs end up reflecting that) and you'll learn a lot about the FAA. They will lead you through the process. You will also find getting insurance without the part 135 cert next to impossible.

You bring up an interesting question though. Can private carriage apply to cargo? Let me look into that...

Ok. I've spent a few minutes with the FAR's. In this discussion thread anywhere we have said "persons" can be replaced with "property" (including cargo) and the answer would be the same. So (I think) private carriage can apply to cargo, but not in the scenario you presented above, but as we have discussed before (private corporate pilot carrying company cargo for his boss in the company aircraft). There are some specific regs in part 135 and 121 that apply to cargo-only, and operations that are both cargo and persons, but the foundation is the same.

So if you owned your own Chieftain as a company aircraft and incidental to your company you needed to transport company materials somewhere, your employed pilot could do that private carriage. If you owned your own Chieftain as a company aircraft and wanted to help pay for it by finding (contracting, advertising, soliciting, etc) other company's cargo to carry, now I believe you are holding out and at least part 135 applies.

Last edited by WEACLRS; 02-20-2006 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 07-30-2008, 06:53 AM
  #47  
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Ok, im bringing this post back because I have a situation im wondering about. Im a commercial pilot with a CFI and my dad has some friends, that i've never met, that are professional basketball referees. He says that they know I am a commercial pilot and were wondering if I could fly them to their games they have to ref.

The other problem is that the plane I would have to use would either be my dad's (which he owns in a factional ownership) or a rented plane.

Now as I understand it, the airplane and the pilot cannot come from the same place, so the customer would have to "rent" the aircraft. Also, this would be common carriage unless a long-term contract is signed with the person.

It is all very confusing, and i've read through all the above posts and still don't really know the answer to my exact situation

-----

Secondly, since I am also a CFI.. can I give instruction to anyone who comes to me, (if they themselves rent the airplane)... or is this also considered holding out?
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Old 08-01-2008, 11:10 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by JMT21 View Post
I was given this scenario during my oral:

You (a commercial pilot) and another commercial pilot are sitting around at the local FBO when a guy on crutches walks in. He askes out loud if there are any commercial pilots here. You and the other pilot glance at each other while the guy continues on saying that he flew in yesterday and broke his leg and needs to get home. Hes looking for someone to fly him and his plane back home, he also says that he can't pay you but he'll buy you a airline ticket home tomarrow. You stand up and say sure your a commercial pilot and will do it (Knowing that the plane and pilot are coming from different sources and figuring you'll atleast be able to log a few free hours).

What do you think, is what you just did illegal or not?
Yes you can do it. You, the pilot, are not providing the airplane. Only your services to fly the owner's airplane.

Originally Posted by KiloAlpha View Post
As a commercial pilot essentially all you can legally do for hire is flight instruct;



when in doubt, I would err on the cautious side and decline any offer to "work for hire." (especially when holding out is believed to be involved in the equation.)


Mmmm...as a commerical single engine pilot you can legally be hired as a pilot (employee) to fly a single engine airplane for that company by which you were hired.



-Banner Towing

-Cargo

-Instructing

-Droping Skydivers



As long as you're an employee and you DID NOT provide the airplane.
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