pilotinsky

Just want to confirm that Instrument (w/out IR rating) student can't log PIC when he/she w/CFII in actual condition.

I subtract the actual time from my student's PIC time.

rickair7777

Actually they CAN log it, at least according to the conventional wisdom. It doesn't sound right, but in this case the student (assuming at least a PPL) is rated in the aircraft and is manipulating the controls.

IMC is a condition of flight, which technically does not affect your ability to log PIC.

Remember, there is a difference between LOGGING and actually BEING the PIC...in IMC or IFR the CFII is the PIC.

n2o2diver

According to the FAA Office of the Chief Counsel you can.

This should clear up all the confusion.

This comes from Office of Chief Counsel Q&A #291 dated Aug 7,2008.

Read the PDF here: http://www.cfispot.com/wp-content/th...approaches.pdf

Or search for it or other legal opinions from the FAA Chief Counsel here.
Regulations

If your unable to view the links, this is the last paragraph and it pretty much sums it up.

The Chief Counsel's office agrees that the earlier guidance reflects the appropriate
interpretation of the regulations. The regulations expressly permit an authorized instructor
conducting instrrunent instruction in actual instrument flight conditions to log instrument
flight time (61.5 1(g)(2)). The only remaining issue is whether, even if properly logged, the
approaches are considered to have been "performed" by the instructor within the meaning of
section 61.57 (c)(l). The FAA views the instructor's oversight responsibility when
instructing in actual instrument flight conditions to meet the obligation of 61.57( c)(1) to
have performed the approaches.

NoyGonnaDoIt

Except that your link answers the question of whether the CFI may log an approach, not pilotinsky's question about whether the instrument student may log PIC in actual. So answering the initial question instead of the most recent onw can be a bit confusing

pilotinsly, don't deduct that time. It's is logable as PIC by your student because your student, a private pilot, is the sole manipulator of an =aircraft= he is rated for, which is all that is required for logging PIC time.

The FAA Chief Counsel has been saying so for at least 29 years, with the latest confirmation coming earlier this month:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...9/Haralson.pdf

slipped

most confusing thread ever

NoyGonnaDoIt

basic thread creep. Two different questions being discussed always leads to confusion even when the answers are simple.

May a CFI log an instrument approach performed in actual by the student?
Yes.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...0B.%20Levy.pdf

May a pilot without an instrument rating log PIC when being trained in actual?
Yes.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...9/Haralson.pdf